Calvanism Disproven

[37818]

So far, you have no argument to understand. You cherrypicked a few verses and never explained why and you failed to explain the parable. I explained it to you and you haven't stated anything in response.

Your problem you do not acknowledge that salvation being solely a gift is the condition in order to be saved. Salvation cannot be merited. That salvation cannot be merited, is a condition, in order to be saved. I cited no passage of Scripture here.

 

[AustinC]

Your problem you do not acknowledge that salvation being solely a gift is the condition in order to be saved. Salvation cannot be merited. That salvation cannot be merited, is a condition, in order to be saved. I cited no passage of Scripture here.

In what way is it a condition? What condition does God place upon men or upon Himself when He chooses to save someone?
Since you are making the claim, you need to show the condition God has set.

Why is it a problem that I don't grasp your assertion that there is an unsourced condition that you have asserted with no evidence for your assertion?

 

[Alan Gross]

Your problem you do not acknowledge that salvation being solely a gift is the condition in order to be saved. Salvation cannot be merited. That salvation cannot be merited, is a condition, in order to be saved. I cited no passage of Scripture here.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The context of "gift" is that the sinner is otherwise dead.

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Revmitchell]

The prodigal wasn't dead. Nowhere does it indicate the prodigal was dead. The prodigal was a son. He was already in the family. He was never considered dead.

Read the text in Ephesians 2:1-5 and note that whatever definition you are attempting to have is not supported in the passage.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

 

[Guido]

If Irresistable grace is true, then God changed the desires of some when they didn't want them changed, thus forcing them against their free will to choose him.

 

[Guido]

Then it is a work not grace. Romans 11:6. Romans 4:1-5.

Just like all excepts God, so works except faith. Besides, faith in Christ is not a work of the Law.

 

[Marooncat79]

If Irresistable grace is true, then God changed the desires of some when they didn't want them changed, thus allowing them to choose him.

fixed that quote for ya

now you are right

 

[Marooncat79]

Who would dare reject a gift from an Earthly King?

death would be the result!

how much greater is the God of the Bible greater than an Earthly King

 

[Guido]

fixed that quote for ya

now you are right

You didn't even address the issue.

 

[Guido]

I have books, one defending Calvinism, and one refuting it. Perhaps after reading them I will be better prepared for this debate.

The problem is I lack self-discipline, and/or maybe I need to go back on an SSRI.

 

[Marooncat79]

I have books, one defending Calvinism, and one refuting it. Perhaps after reading them I will be better prepared for this debate.

The problem is I lack self-discipline, and/or maybe I need to go back on an SSRI.

Yes, I would encourage you to read and understand what you are arguing before engaging in a debate. Especially, if you are arguing against something that is clearly taught in scripture.

It seems to always help

 

[AustinC]

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

The key word is..."my son."
Second, the context in the parable is different than that of Ephesians 2. In the prodigal, the father is expressing the change of heart that his son had. In Ephesians Paul tells us what God did "even while we were dead" in sin. In the prodigal, we follow the life of the prodigal and see the father waiting. In Ephesians 2 we see our utter hopelessness and see that it is all God who brings hope while we are dead.
You are attempting to make a connection that is not there. But, you did find the word "dead" in both places and I see what you are attempting to do. I find that attempt inaccurate at best.

 

[37818]

In what way is it a condition?

So according to you salvation can be by works then?

 

[37818]

Just like all excepts God, so works except faith. Besides, faith in Christ is not a work of the Law.

Romans 4:1-5, was not works, and that was before the Law was given. Galatians 3:17, Galatians 2:21.

 

[Reformed1689]

prove my argument is false.

That wasn't the post I quoted. You are posting verses that have nothing to do with the overall topic.

 

[37818]

That wasn't the post I quoted. You are posting verses that have nothing to do with the overall topic.

My argument I was referring to was that salvation is conditional. That condition being that salvation being a gift is not merited. Which goes to that gift being genuinely offered to all. Otherwise would be fraudulent gospel offered to all.

 

[canadyjd]

If Irresistable grace is true, then God changed the desires of some when they didn't want them changed, thus forcing them against their free will to choose him.

God changed their nature without their permission, freeing them from human will enslaved to sin. They respond to God’s intervention with faith in Jesus.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

My argument I was referring to was that salvation is conditional. That condition being that salvation being a gift is not merited. Which goes to that gift being genuinely offered to all. Otherwise would be fraudulent gospel offered to all.

I’ll try one more time. You claim it is “fraudulent” to offer salvation if the person is unable to accept it.

Note!!……This is my question! ….Note!!!!

What’s the difference between God of granting salvation by keeping the OT Law, knowing not a single person would ever keep the law to obtain that salvation and God granting salvation by believing the gospel knowing no one will believe unless He intervenes in their lives to make them able?

peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's quite the phenomena these days, there's several 'Calvinist-slayers' on board now.

Yea… they are kept on here for entertainment value not theological perspective.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are attempting to make a connection that is not there. But, you did find the word "dead" in both places and I see what you are attempting to do. I find that attempt inaccurate at best.

Of course that is what you find. That is what your doctrine tells you to find. Your presupposition will not allow for anything else. Problem is you did not make the case for your errant definition of dead in Ephesians. You did however, read into Ephesians that definition. Again, you define it differently than scripture does so it makes these discussions impossible.

Dead means separated not unable. The difficulty with the reformed version of dead is that you want to claim that the lost are dead like a corps but only apply that analogy half way. You say that dead means unable but then the question is unable to do what? You say unable to respond to the gospel. But then you trip yourself up with that analogy because all of the sudden the dead are not so dead that they can reject the gospel. If a dead person is unable to believe then how is it they are able to reject? Unable must logically go both ways to be intellectually honest. Inability must necessarily be applied to rejecting as much as it is believing. Your argument defeats itself.

The prodigal was separated from his father. That is what the father meant. That is the point of the parable. There are three parables in Luke 15. The two main thoughts are something precious was lost and then found, and there was rejoicing over finding that which was precious. None of the parables indicate death in the sense of lazerus. The sheep, the coin, the son were all lost (separated) from someone. The context here does not allow for the reformed errant definition of death.

The gospel, itself, is the power that God created to provide faith (Romans 10:9-17, 1:16). It is inspired (God breathed) and the means by which God has chosen to save souls. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit must first make one spiritually alive in order for men to believe under the measure of grace (the gospel) that God provided as the means to bring men to salvation. The gospel is the grace of God for the ability to believe (faith). There is no other means that God uses other than the gospel. He does not need to also give an extra measure of grace (enable to believe) for men to be saved. The power is the word of God.