"The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

[Alan Gross]

from; http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

"Now from all this it appears,
that redemption is not universal, is not of all men;

for though they are many for whom the ransom price is paid;
yet though all are many, many are not all;

and if the redeemed are such who are the objects of God's special love
and favour, then not all men;

for there are some of whom it is said,

"He that made them, will not have mercy on them;
and he that formed them, will show them no favour", #Isa 27:11.

If they are the elect of God who are redeemed by Christ,
and them only, then not all men;

for all are not chosen;

"The election hath obtained it";

and

"the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

if only those are redeemed for whom Christ became a surety,
then not all men;

since Christ did not engage to pay the debts of all men;

and if they are the people of God and Christ, then not all;

since there are some on whom God writes a "loammi", saying,

"Ye are not my people; and I will not be your God",
#Ho 1:9.

And if they are the sheep of Christ, to whom he gives eternal life;
then not the goats, who will go into everlasting punishment;

and if they are the children of God,
and the church and spouse of Christ;
then not all men;

for all do not bear these characters, nor stand in these relations.

What may be further necessary, will be to produce some reasons,
or arguments, against universal redemption;

and to give an answer to such scriptures as are brought in favour of it.

It should be observed, that it is agreed on both sides,
that all are not eventually saved: could universal salvation be established,

there would be no objection to universal redemption;

the former not being the case the latter cannot be true;

Christ certainly saves all whom he redeems.

 

[Silverhair]

for though they are many for whom the ransom price is paid;
yet though all are many, many are not all;.

1 Timothy 2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all

and if the redeemed are such who are the objects of God's special love
and favour, then not all men;.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 God...desires all men to be saved

If they are the elect of God who are redeemed by Christ,
and them only, then not all men;.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus

for all are not chosen;.

Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

if only those are redeemed for whom Christ became a surety,
then not all men;

Romans 5:6, Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

since Christ did not engage to pay the debts of all men;

1 Timothy 2:6 [Christ] ...gave Himself as a ransom for all
Romans 5:10 reconciled to God through the death of His Son,... we shall be saved by His life

and if they are the people of God and Christ, then not all;

John 1:12 ...who received him, ...believed in his name, ...become children of God,

for all do not bear these characters, nor stand in these relations.

John 3:18 ...who believe in him are not condemned; ...do not believe are condemned

It should be observed, that it is agreed on both sides,
that all are not eventually saved: could universal salvation be established,

1 Timothy 4:10 ...we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Christ certainly saves all whom he redeems.

Acts of the Apostles 16:30 ...what must I do to be saved?
Acts of the Apostles 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

Alan from what I have seen in the bible it seems that it would not agree with the view being put forward in your post.

 

[DaveXR650]

I only hope that when these Calvinist/Arminian debates get started we keep in mind that a Calvinist preacher is allowed to preach the word and call for decisions. I just finished listening to Martyn Lloyd Jones preaching on Hebrews chapter 6. (If you go to the website and plug in "Hebrews" into the search it's the first sermon that pops up.) He clearly calls on people to heed the warnings of scripture and repent before it's too late. He is clearly appealing to people to choose and using the logic that they are "nigh" unto destruction but not there yet so now is the time for them to change. And he is assuming that they have a real choice in the matter. If you lean Arminian you need to realize this and understand that Calvinism does not always lead to the devilish conclusions you think it does. If you are a Calvinist and you bristle at a sermon like the above you may need to reexamine the application of the principles.

 

[Alan Gross]

1 Timothy 2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all

all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).

1 Timothy 2:3-4 God...desires all men to be saved

all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).

this ransom was given for "all"; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust to receive a sufficient ransom price from Christ, and yet not free the captive, but punish the person for whom he has received satisfaction; neither of which can be said. But the meaning is, either that he gave himself a ransom for many, as in Matthew 20:28 for the Hebrew word to which this answers, signifies sometimes many, a multitude, and sometimes only a part of a multitude, as Kimchi observes (y):

or rather it intends that Christ gave himself
a ransom for all sorts of men,
for men of every rank and quality, of every state and condition,
of every age and sex, and for all sorts of sinners,
and for some out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation,
for both Jews and Gentiles;

which latter may more especially be designed by all,
as they are sometimes by the world, and the whole world;

and so contains another argument why all sorts of men are to be prayed for,
since the same ransom price is given for them;

as that for the children of Israel was the same, for the rich as for the poor.

We (z) read, that when the people of Israel comforted the high priest
upon the death of his wife, or any relation, they used to say to him,
, "we are thy atonement", expiation, or ransom;

that is, as the commentators (a) explain it, by us thou shalt be atoned,
for we will be in thy room and stead,
with respect to all things that shall come upon thee;
but here the High priest and Mediator is the atonement
and ransom for the people:

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus

The, "you", have been Given Repentance and Faith

Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved

Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

Romans 5:6, Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Christ Died for Spiritually Dead, ungodly, sinners.

1 Timothy 2:6 [Christ] ...gave Himself as a ransom for all

all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).

Romans 5:10 reconciled to God through the death of His Son,... we shall be saved by His life

Saved souls are reconciled.

John 1:12 ...who received him, ...believed in his name, ...become children of God,

Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

John 3:18 ...who believe in him are not condemned; ...do not believe are condemned

Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

"Believe" is not the description of a Method of 'Salvation'.

There is one way of Salvation, Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION
and The Gospel to Repent and Believe, both which are implied any time they are left out.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Timothy 4:10 ...we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).

Acts of the Apostles 16:30 ...what must I do to be saved?
Acts of the Apostles 16:31 ...Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

The Jailer and his family knew plenty about Paul
and his preaching prior to this.

Afterward, "32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord,
and to all that were in his house.

The law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

There is one way of Salvation, Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION
and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.

Just as it is implied what Lydia "heard".

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple,
of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us:
whose heart the Lord opened,
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

It is GOD Who "Opens the heart" and He Will Not Give His Glory
to another person, or another "gospel".

 

[Silverhair]

all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



The, "you", have been Given Repentance and Faith



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.



Christ Died for Spiritually Dead, ungodly, sinners.



all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



Saved souls are reconciled.



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

"Believe" is not the description of a Method of 'Salvation'.

There is one way of Salvation, Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION
and The Gospel to Repent and Believe, both which are implied any time they are left out.



all kinds (such as Gentiles, also, and not just Jews).



Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

The Jailer and his family knew plenty about Paul
and his preaching prior to this.

Afterward, "32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord,
and to all that were in his house.

The law to bring CONVICTION and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

There is one way of Salvation, Hearing the law to bring CONVICTION
and The Gospel to Repent and Believe.

Just as it is implied what Lydia "heard".

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened,
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

As I said hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved by God because of your trust in the living God Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that one has to believe before one is saved. I agree that some people will hear the gospel message more than once before they turn in faith to God.

 

[Alan Gross]

As I said hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved by God because of your trust in the living God Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that one has to believe before one is saved. I agree that some people will hear the gospel message more than once before they turn in faith to God.

As I said hear the gospel believe the gospel

REPENT and HEAR The GOSPEL

and be saved by God because of your trust in the living God Christ Jesus.

You almost slipped that, "because of your trust", in there.

King James Bible
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The bible is clear that one has to believe before one is saved.

The Triune Godhead Elected.

"whom He did Predestinate"

The Triune Godhead Effectually Calls

"them He Calls..." Romans 8:28, 30.

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.

Ephesians 1:13a "In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Power of God unto SALVATION,
and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.

Ephesians 2:1
"And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 1:13b "...in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were Sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.

Romans 8:30c "whom He called, them He also Justified:"

GLORIFICATION is in the Future in man's view.

Romans 8:30c "and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."

 

[Silverhair]

REPENT and HEAR The GOSPEL



You almost slipped that, "because of your trust", in there.

King James Bible
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
thou hast the dew of thy youth.



The Triune Godhead Elected.

"whom He did Predestinate"

The Triune Godhead Effectually Calls

"them He Calls..." Romans 8:28, 30.

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.

Ephesians 1:13a "In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Power of God unto SALVATION,
and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.

Ephesians 2:1
"And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 1:13b "...in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were Sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"

This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.

Romans 8:30c "whom He called, them He also Justified:"

GLORIFICATION is in the Future in man's view.

Romans 8:30c "and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."

Alan you would do ok if you could get past your calvinism and just stick with what the bible says. Your idea that God has to give one faith so they can believe is just a calvinist construct. You just do not seem to get the part of the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Then when one hears the gospel they can believe it or reject it. That is why they are held responsible for their choice. The bible shows this as you pointed out in Eph 1:13 and also in Rom 10:9-10. So it is not slipping "because of your trust", in there, but rather just being biblical.

 

[AustinC]

As I said hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved by God because of your trust in the living God Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that one has to believe before one is saved. I agree that some people will hear the gospel message more than once before they turn in faith to God.

Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work,?

 

[Silverhair]

Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work,?

How do you get that from what I wrote.

 

[AustinC]

How do you get that from what I wrote.

I will highlight what you said.
You wrote:
As I said hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved by God because of your trust in the living God Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that one has to believe before one is saved. I agree that some people will hear the gospel message more than once before they turn in faith to God.

I asked:
Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

Now that I have shown you how I read your words, please answer my question.

 

[Silverhair]

I will highlight what you said.
You wrote:
As I said hear the gospel believe the gospel and be saved by God because of your trust in the living God Christ Jesus. The bible is clear that one has to believe before one is saved. I agree that some people will hear the gospel message more than once before they turn in faith to God.

I asked:
Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

Now that I have shown you how I read your words, please answer my question.

Why do you just pick and choose the words that you want to read? Do you study the bible the same way? Read what you like and discard what you do not like.

 

[AustinC]

Why do you just pick and choose the words that you want to read? Do you study the bible the same way? Read what you like and discard what you do not like.

How about answering the question.

Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

 

[Silverhair]

How about answering the question.

Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

How about reading what I wrote and not do what you say you did, just read what you like. God has provided the means for man to know Him but you do not seem to trust what the bible says. I have pointed out to you more than once how God draws people but you just brush it of as it does not line up with your calvinist theology. You need to start trusting the bible.

 

[AustinC]

How about reading what I wrote and not do what you say you did, just read what you like. God has provided the means for man to know Him but you do not seem to trust what the bible says. I have pointed out to you more than once how God draws people but you just brush it of as it does not line up with your calvinist theology. You need to start trusting the bible.

I read what you wrote. I highlighted what you wrote without changing a word. I am still waiting for you to answer the question. You refuse to answer it. I showed you why I asked the question. You still refuse to answer the question. Odd that you refuse to answer.
Here's the question:
Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

 

[Silverhair]

I read what you wrote. I highlighted what you wrote without changing a word. I am still waiting for you to answer the question. You refuse to answer it. I showed you why I asked the question. You still refuse to answer the question. Odd that you refuse to answer.
Here's the question:
Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

I answered your question but you are not willing to accept that answer. But here it is again.
God has provided the means for man to know Him but you do not seem to trust what the bible says. I have pointed out to you more than once how God draws people but you just brush it of as it does not line up with your calvinist theology. You need to start trusting the bible.

 

[AustinC]

God has provided the means for man to know Him

God draws people

I removed all the unimportant words you added and I take the above as your answer to this question:
Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

From your answer I take it that you believe God shows up before a person believes. According to you, "God draws people." We agree.

Yet, the Bible declares that God does more than draw. I provided Bible passages for you so you can't fall upon your crutch.
*Matthew 25:34*
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
*Hebrews 9:15-17*
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
*1 Peter 1:3-5*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You also said "God provided the means for man to know Him."

I agree.

We know God when we hear God's voice. Yet, not all respond. Jesus tells us why.
*John 10:25-30*
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

 

[Silverhair]

I removed all the unimportant words you added and I take the above as your answer to this question:
Do you think God doesn't show up until you've done all the work?

From your answer I take it that you believe God shows up before a person believes. According to you, "God draws people." We agree.

Yet, the Bible declares that God does more than draw. I provided Bible passages for you so you can't fall upon your crutch.
*Matthew 25:34*
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
*Hebrews 9:15-17*
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
*1 Peter 1:3-5*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You also said "God provided the means for man to know Him."

I agree.

We know God when we hear God's voice. Yet, not all respond. Jesus tells us why.
*John 10:25-30*
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Austin why is it that you keep going on about context and then you ignore it. All you needed to do was include three verses and then you would not have misused these verses. John 10:22-24

Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
Joh 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.
Joh 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Main takeaways from these verses He was in the temple and He was questioned by Jews. Who had seen and ignored the signs that Christ had done? Had some of the Jews believed in Him,YES but most had not. Those that believed Him Christ called His sheep. The same can be said of the gentiles, those that hear His voice and respond will be saved. We become His sheep when we trust in Him not before.

 

[AustinC]

Austin why is it that you keep going on about context and then you ignore it. All you needed to do was include three verses and then you would not have misused these verses. John 10:22-24

Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
Joh 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch.
Joh 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Main takeaways from these verses He was in the temple and He was questioned by Jews. Who had seen and ignored the signs that Christ had done? Had some of the Jews believed in Him,YES but most had not. Those that believed Him Christ called His sheep. The same can be said of the gentiles, those that hear His voice and respond will be saved. We become His sheep when we trust in Him not before.

Jesus responded and told them he had not kept them in doubt. No, they had heard and didn't believe. The reason was because they were not God's sheep.
Had God not chosen you, you also would not have believed. But, God chose you and you heard His voice and believed.
Since you agree with me, that God must first draw, then you live in contradiction with yourself.
In one hand God must draw. In the other hand you think you must believe on your own before God can save you.
Perhaps you simply cannot see your contradiction. However, others will see and understand.

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus responded and told them he had not kept them in doubt. No, they had heard and didn't believe. The reason was because they were not God's sheep.
Had God not chosen you, you also would not have believed. But, God chose you and you heard His voice and believed.
Since you agree with me, that God must first draw, then you live in contradiction with yourself.
In one hand God must draw. In the other hand you think you must believe on your own before God can save you.
Perhaps you simply cannot see your contradiction. However, others will see and understand.

Austin you seem to have this silly idea that one is saved before they even hear the gospel, that is calvinism. What does the bible say Ephesians 1:13. Hear, believe and be saved. That is not a contradiction that is biblical. Your idea that one is saved before they even hear the gospel is just a false gospel. You live with a contradiction which has been pointed out to a number of times but you continue to trust your calvinism rather than the bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan you would do ok if you could get past your calvinism and just stick with what the bible says. Your idea that God has to give one faith so they can believe is just a calvinist construct. You just do not seem to get the part of the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. Then when one hears the gospel they can believe it or reject it. That is why they are held responsible for their choice. The bible shows this as you pointed out in Eph 1:13 and also in Rom 10:9-10. So it is not slipping "because of your trust", in there, but rather just being biblical.

Your idea that God has to give one faith so they can believe is just a calvinist construct.

Do you think Calvin wrote the Bible?

Remarkable.

Ephesians 2:8b; "...faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

"YOU WILL NOT COME TO ME THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LIFE"

Luke 19:10; "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"