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Featured Dynamic Equivalence--Again!

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Oct 25, 2022.

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  1. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Serve it up and perhaps we will be able to decipher it a bit. But what we really need is a video of those other profs excoriating you (for learning purposes, of course). :Wink
     
    #41 RighteousnessTemperance&, Nov 7, 2022
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Well, there may have been videos and I may have destroyed them.... Or not, you'll never know. :Cool

    Anyway, here is the essay.
     

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    #42 John of Japan, Nov 8, 2022
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  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Been pretty busy lately, but here's something about the linguistics behind Nida's theory.

    He based it partly on what is called the code theory of communication. Nida wrote, "Fundamentally, a code consists of symbols organized into a system Language, which is precisely such a code, consists of words (or other units) which are organized, according 'to the rules of grammar' into particular types of combinations." Toward a Science of Translating, p. 30.

    Unfortunately for Nida's theory, code theory is passe, not generally accepted nowadays. I have a recent book on communication theory which doesn't mention it at all: Theories of Human Communication, 10th ed., by Stephen W. Littlejohn and Karen A. Foss. Long Grove, IL: Waveland Press, 2011.

    Among Bible translators, the theory that has replaced code theory is called relevance theory. The primary resource on this is Ernst-August Gutt, Relevance Theory. Dallas: Summer Institute of Linguistics, 1992. Gutt wrote, “There are many aspects of human communication for which the code model simply cannot account" (p. 11).

    Even some secular scholars have noted that relevance theory replaces code theory. Anthony Pym wrote quoting Gutt and referring to Nida, "In insisting that interpretation be in terms of the source context, Gutt effectively discounts much of the 'dynamic equivalence' that Nida wanted to use to make biblical texts relevant to new audiences. Gutt insists not only that the original context is the one that counts, but also that this makes 'the explication of implicatures both unnecessary and undesirable' (1991:166). In the end, 'it is the audience’s responsibility to make up for such differences' (ibid). Make the receiver work!"
    Exploring Translation Theories, by Anthony Pym. Florence, KY: Routledge, 2009, p. 37.
     
    #43 John of Japan, Nov 11, 2022
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I have been railing against the DE for years on this board. Some here take it personally when I do. This example you give here is a good one. There is no legitimate reason to translate it any other way than Holy Kiss. Did they actually literally kiss each other? Then that is the only way it should be translated. How we would emulate that today is discovered in application not translation. The DE translators are trying to remove the literal by commingling the translation and the application. Its not necessary. It doesn't assist in understanding and its ungodly.Never should we remove what literally happened in scripture to accommodate cultural norms of our day.
     
    #44 Revmitchell, Nov 16, 2022
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  5. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Well you are wrong again RM. Even the KJV didn't follow your strictures. It has "kiss of charity.'

    Most English translations have "kiss of love" Even the ones you would consider to be dynamic such as : CSB, CEB, EHV, NCB, NCV, NET, NIrV, NIV, NLT and NRSV,
     
    #45 RipponRedeaux, Nov 19, 2022
  6. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    What do you do with Selah in the Psalms?
     
    #46 RipponRedeaux, Nov 19, 2022
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    "Charity" meant "love" in 1611.
     
    #47 John of Japan, Nov 20, 2022
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  8. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Well, duh. But what has that to do with anything? RM was insisting that the only legitimate way of translating that was
    Holy Kiss. And that is utter nonsense.
     
    #48 RipponRedeaux, Nov 20, 2022
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is where study comes in (and realizing that we live in different cultures). This necessitates a literal translation.

    One example (in theology) is Origen's theory. Most scholars believe he (like many earlier preachers) personified sin and death as "Satan" (without meaning this literally). Fast forward a few centuries and it became people understood God as paying a ransom to Satan (literally).

    Translations should be translations, not explanations, of the text.
     
    #49 JonC, Nov 20, 2022
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  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Okay, let me get this straight. Translating ἐν φιλήματι ἁγίῳ (meaning "holy kiss") with only "holy kiss" is nonsense? When that is exactly what it means, and the rendering makes sense to any English speaking person on the planet?

    By all means, don't just call it "nonsense." Please tell us WHY you think it is nonsense. What linguistic or translation principle are you referencing here?

    And just to be clear, "kiss of charity" only occurs in 1 Peter 5:14, and there the Greek is different, ἐν φιλήματι ἀγάπης, meaning "kiss of charity/love," just as the KJV has it.

    And go back and look. I quoted secular translation studies scholars, far more qualified than you, who disagree with Nida's preferred "hearty handshake."
     
    #50 John of Japan, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I transliterate, just like most translators do. Any other irrelevant queries?
     
    #51 John of Japan, Nov 21, 2022
  12. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Why do you consider it irrelevant? It has no set meaning. It is mere speculation that it means pause and reflect.
     
    #52 RipponRedeaux, Nov 21, 2022
  13. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Phillips used the phraseology of "a hearty handshake all around." And that singular expression is held up to be the prime example of the weakness of DE translations. Yet no other translation has that wording. It must be concluded that no other translation is DE. :)
     
    #53 RipponRedeaux, Nov 22, 2022
  14. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    In Ro. 16:16, 1 Cor. 16:20, 2 Cor. 13:12 and 1 Thess. 5:26 the Goodspeed translation has sacred kiss. Is that wrong? Sacred is a synonym for holy. But no, that has to be illegitimate because to veer away from the dictums of some there cannot be any other way to translate but holy kiss.
     
    #54 RipponRedeaux, Nov 22, 2022
  15. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Tighten up that English. :)
     
    #55 RipponRedeaux, Nov 22, 2022
  16. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Here my beef

    you have an American Pastor who is monolingual and a KJVO advocate

    they understand absolutely nothing at all in translation work whether it’s syntax of whatever, yet bash those who work diligently to try and provide a copy of the WOG to those who have none, or to provide a more vernacular reading for our day.

    especially to those who do not have a good Bible Translation in their own language

    and to think that there are some who actually believe that you have to learn English, so that you can read a KJV Bible in order to be saved is mind boggling to me. Truly

    and they can’t even keep quiet about it 2 seconds to contemplate it

    anyone who has truly been involved in any non English country can tell you that the first thing you have to do is dress like the native only to be quickly followed by speaking their language
     
    #56 Marooncat79, Nov 22, 2022
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    "Sacred kiss" is a semantic equivalent, and therefore certainly a possibility for the rendering.
     
    #57 John of Japan, Nov 22, 2022
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Tighten up your own grammar. The subject of that sentence is "user," not "scholars. :p
     
    #58 John of Japan, Nov 22, 2022
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  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Tell you what, perhaps it deserves its own thread.
     
    #59 John of Japan, Nov 22, 2022
  20. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    To translate that into proper English :
    But typical evangelical users of the term , including some scholars, don't understand its origin.

    There, I fixed it for you.
     
    #60 RipponRedeaux, Nov 22, 2022
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