40%?

[JonC]

Here is some things @Van doesn't know because he denies the quoted sources exist. (Quoted from the sources already provided).

Almost all ecological indexes of LFP batteries are better than those of ternary batteries. It is beneficial to reduce environmental damage by prioritizing LFP batteries

Manufacturing batteries of any kind requires energy and resources, but lithium iron phosphate batteries have several advantages over other technologies in terms of resource consumption and safety, and they have great potential to help reduce carbon emissions when used in wind and solar power systems.

In the process of promotion, EVs are sometimes considered to be zero-emission vehicles, but their production and use of battery packs will have a great impact on the environment. Therefore, recent studies have focused more on the environmental benefits of EVs.

For the three types of most commonly used LIBs: the LFP battery, the NMC battery and the LMO battery, the GHG emissions from the production of a 28 kWh battery are 3061 kg CO2-eq, 2912 kg CO2-eq and 2705 kg CO2-eq, respectively.

Pure EVs have no direct greenhouse gas emissions in the use process, but their environmental burden will be indirectly transferred to the power structure.

In this work, based on footprint family, resource depletion and toxic damage indicators, 11 types of EV battery packs and five regions were selected to evaluate the environmental burden of different types of LIBs, and to measure the superiority of battery pack categories and the importance of power network structure. In addition, a dimensionless environmental characteristic index was established to assess the comprehensive environmental impact of the battery pack. The results showed that the Li–S battery is the cleanest battery in the use stage.


The GHG emissions of LFP batteries are 82.5 kg CO2-eq/kWh, which is far less than that of NCM batteries...meanwhile, the GHG emission of the LFP battery assembly stage is 41.33 kg CO2-eq/kWh.


The articles show the negative environmental impact of LFP batteries (in production and on the grid). They are less than other types, but they still exist.

 

[JonC]

Another thing that needs to be considered is the infrastructure.

EV batteries do not produce power. They store power. They can be no more environmentally friendly than the system used to produce that power to include the manufacturing of that production system.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

… thermal runaway; watch them burn for hours & hours & hours. How much chemical toxins are released into the atmosphere when the barge on the Jersey coast went up…. That fire lasted for days.

fire hazards of lithium ion batteries - Google Search

 

[Van]

I do know that your post is based on willful ignorance.

The reason I know this is you have repeatedly stated that my posts supplying peer reviewed articles citing studies do not provide sources.
.

I ask for a source for "A" and you say non-germane links provide the source. Fiddlesticks.
Where is the quote, the source, for me saying use more coal? Zip
Do you links define environmentally friendly. Which mining operation?

 

[JonC]

I ask for a source for "A" and you say non-germane links provide the source. Fiddlesticks.
Where is the quote, the source, for me saying use more coal? Zip
Do you links define environmentally friendly. Which mining operation?

I think you responded to me by mistake.

I never said that you said use more coal.

I provided links stating that EV battery production needed to be improved to make it environmentally friendly.

The links compare different batteries, concluding that LFP batteries are less destructive to the environment than other types of batteries. At the same time the scientists noted things that could be improved.

LFP battery production, for example, have less carbon emissions than other types of battery production, but the scientists who wrote the article state that the carbon footprint of LFP batteries can be improved upon.

The main issue identified was common to all battery types - that is these are ways to store rather than produce energy.

A combustion engine produces energy. An EV uses energy that was produced by diverse means. If coal was used to produce the power stored by EV batteries then coal must be factored in. If solar panels are used then solar panel production is a factor. Etc.


People like to talk about EV's being clean, but they are very hesitant to factor in actual power production (which is a dishonest comparison).


Environmentally friendly is defined as "not harmful to the environment". What you are talking about is "less harmful", but even here this depends on the actual power source.

 

[Revmitchell]

In commenting about the UAW strike against auto makers, a concern was mentioned about a 40% reduction in the number of autoworkers if the USA transitions to BEV's.

Now we definitely know where some of the anti-BEV propaganda is coming from. On one hand, we are told BEV's are two expensive for ordinary people to buy. But BEV's cost about $10,000 more than similar fossil fueled vehicles.

Question, why do BEV's cost more with far fewer parts and subsystems and labor. Lets say a BEV battery costs about $165 per KW-h and they need 90 KW-hs of battery to needed range, 300 miles plus. That works out to about $15,000 for the battery. And since the actual much simpler vehicle should cost say 25% less, then the cost differential should be less than $5,000. Easily recovered in a few years of operating cost savings.

In summary, a nice fossil fuel car should be about $40,000 and a nice BEV should be about $45,000.

Until you have to replace those batteries. Maintenance on them is crazy

 

[canadyjd]

I ask for a source for "A" and you say non-germane links provide the source. Fiddlesticks.
Where is the quote, the source, for me saying use more coal? Zip
Do you links define environmentally friendly. Which mining operation?

Obfuscation!!!! Full Stop!!!!

You have been schooled with hard evidence.

You can no longer plead ignorance of the dangers of EV vehicles and the use of child slave labor in their production.

peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Until you have to replace those batteries. Maintenance on them is crazy

Just one more thing to factor in. God provides us with fossil fuel in abundance….without that, our human race would be back in the dark ages. Now let’s just turn our backs on it and readjust our lives to battery operated thermal runaway bombs that will cost more and are less safe. Yea right. BTW, I’m shopping around for a late model LS 400 eight cylinder gas operated vehicle, back wheel drive 4 door. Those cars are designed for luxury and they are built to run beyond 200,000 miles minimum. I plan to use it to tour the country with my family and get the hell outa godless (Woke)North East. Could you believe they are conducting Spanish language classes for the Gringo’s to learn Spanish to better communicate with the illegals! Honestly, what country is this?

 

[Revmitchell]

Just one more thing to factor in. God provides us with fossil fuel in abundance….without that, our human race would be back in the dark ages. Now let’s just turn our backs on it and readjust our lives to battery operated thermal runaway bombs that will cost more and are less safe. Yea right. BTW, I’m shopping around for a late model LS 400 eight cylinder gas operated vehicle, back wheel drive 4 door. Those cars are designed for luxury and they are built to run beyond 200,000 miles minimum. I plan to use it to tour the country with my family and get the hell outa godless (Woke)North East. Could you believe they are conducting Spanish language classes for the Gringo’s to learn Spanish to better communicate with the illegals! Honestly, what country is this?

The whole green energy thing is a lie and has ulterior motivations.

 

[JonC]

The whole green energy thing is a lie and has ulterior motivations.

Follow the money.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Follow the money.

The American people do not want this hoax. It will show up in the votes or more precisely Lack there of.

 

[Van]

Obfuscation!!!! Full Stop!!!!

You have been schooled with hard evidence.

You can no longer plead ignorance of the dangers of EV vehicles and the use of child slave labor in their production.

peace to you

What evidence? None provided. Did I say I wanted to use more coal? No evidence.
Do LFP batteries have colbait? No evidence provided because the suggestion is false.
I have not been schooled. You did not know the facts or chose to be "willfully ignorant."
Did I say I did not know the dangers of EV vehicles? Nope so yet another strawman falsehood.
Your claim LFP battery materials are minded with child slave labor is an out and out falsehood.

 

[JonC]

@Van

One thing that we don't yet know about your individual EV is how the energy is actually produced to power your vehicle.

We know the pros and cons of combustion engines. And we know that those engines produce power using fuel (which is associated with negative environmental impacts).

How do you actually power your vehicle (where does your energy come from)?



I ask because comparing the environmental impact of your vehicle includes the actual power source. Increasing EV's causes a greater demand for the types of power used.

That can't simply be ignored because batteries merely store that power that is used in the vehicle.

 

[Van]

@Van

One thing that we don't yet know about your individual EV is how the energy is actually produced to power your vehicle.

We know the pros and cons of combustion engines. And we know that those engines produce power using fuel (which is associated with negative environmental impacts).

How do you actually power your vehicle (where does your energy come from)?

So we move on, and never admit no evidence for the false claims has been offered. Too much to ask I suppose.

Getting power for the available utility of our area to recharge our BEV battery is where the majority of users will get their power.
The mix of sources, coal, natural gas, nuclear, hydro, Geo-thermal, wind and solar differ from utility to utility. Natural gas produces lower Air Pollution than Coal, on a per MWh generated. Geo-thermal has not been very successful so far.

My son powers his Volt from his roof-top solar panels. My hybrid simply burns less gasoline per mile than a non-hybrid sedan.

 

[JonC]

So we move on, and never admit no evidence for the false claims has been offered. Too much to ask I suppose.

Getting power for the available utility of our area to recharge our BEV battery is where the majority of users will get their power.
The mix of sources, coal, natural gas, nuclear, hydro, Geo-thermal, wind and solar differ from utility to utility. Natural gas produces lower Air Pollution than Coal, on a per MWh generated. Geo-thermal has not been very successful so far.

My son powers his Volt from his roof-top solar panels. My hybrid simply burns less gasoline per mile than a non-hybrid sedan.

Now. I will not admit that several of those articles discussed the negative environmental impact of lithium mining as well as phosphate mining.

The reason I won't is it would be a lie as I (and you) know otherwise.

We have to look at issues honestly. This includes examining what science tells us about lithium and phosphate mining, as well as other negative impacts linked to EV's. We should do the same with combustion engines.

Willful ignorance is foolish, especially since peer reviewed articles about the negative impact of lithium and phosphate mining have already been posted on this thread.

You are the child covering his head so as not to see. And it is silly because EV's still have a lower negative environmental impact than combustion engines (depending on the power source).

 

[Van]

LOL, the negative impacts of lithium mining. The mining reduces habitat. Yes, but every mine does that.
Science tells us lithium mining is not any worse than copper or iron mining.

The charged of me being willfully ignorant is false, and a fallacious argument.

 

[JonC]

LOL, the negative impacts of lithium mining. The mining reduces habitat. Yes, but every mine does that.
Science tells us lithium mining is not any worse than copper or iron mining.

The charged of me being willfully ignorant is false, and a fallacious argument.

Hold up.....now you are saying that Lithium mining is no worse than copper or iron mining.

You are changing your tune. Before you claimed that we were wrong to say lithium mining is not environmentally friendly.

You keep moving the goal post.

How do you charge your batteries (what power source)?

That is what we need to know in considering the difference between EV and combustion engines.

 

[Van]

Hold up.....now you are saying that Lithium mining is no worse than copper or iron mining.

You are changing your tune. Before you claimed that we were wrong to say lithium mining is not environmentally friendly.

You keep moving the goal post.

How do you charge your batteries (what power source)?

That is what we need to know in considering the difference between EV and combustion engines.

If this sort of post is what you think edifying, go for it. The attacks on LFP battery powered EV's are baseless nonsense.
Folks, see where I answered the "power source question" in post #74.

Not environmentally friendly was not defined, but as it turns out, Lithium mining seems no more unfriendly than other mining operations that provide the materials for our existing society.

To restate for the umpteenth time,
I support a market driven transition to BEV's powered by LFP batteries produced in the USA without support from China. ​

 

[canadyjd]

What evidence? None provided.
.

Apparently some cannot, or more likely, refuse to look at the truth of EV found in the many links provided in this thread.

They are blind to child slave labor, blind to batteries rupturing and spreading toxic material, blind, blind, blind

At least they can pat themselves in the back and say, “oh look at ME!!! I care about the environment!!!”

peace to you

 

[Van]

Apparently some cannot, or more likely, refuse to look at the truth of EV found in the many links provided in this thread.

They are blind to child slave labor, blind to batteries rupturing and spreading toxic material, blind, blind, blind

At least they can pat themselves in the back and say, “oh look at ME!!! I care about the environment!!!”

peace to you

Why are posts proclaiming falsehood used to attack truth?

Did anyone say all BEV are powered by LFP batteries? Nope

Do BEV's powered by LFP batteries use materials mined by child slave labor? Nope

Do BEV's powered by LFP batteries spread toxic material? Nope

To restate for the umpteenth time,
I support a market driven transition to BEV's powered by LFP batteries produced in the USA without support from China.