What Is a Jew or an Israelite?

[Aaron]

I did not realize you were claiming that being a Jew has nothing to do with ethnicity.

Obviously you are wrong, but it depends on what definition you are using.


In a secular sence a Jew is the people who descended from the Israelis that occupied Judea many centuries ago. It is like our native Americans. One's ethnicity as a Jew or native American can be verified through DNA tests.

What we know about the present day Israelis is that they are descended from the genetic peoples who occupied Judea and the present day Jewish people share a unique genetic markers even though they are dispersed throughout the world.

This has nothing to do with evangelical. It is secular (it is the same process used to determine native American heritage).


But science cannot test for religious belief.

You're just stating your opinions. The one time you tried to appeal to evidence it was to your fallacious notions of Israel™'s politics, which have been rebutted. Like I've heard said, what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[Aaron]

It is like our native Americans.

You mean like Elizabeth Warren?

 

[JonC]

You're just stating your opinions. The one time you tried to appeal to evidence it was to your fallacious notions of Israel™'s politics, which have been rebutted. Like I've heard said, what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

You never offered a rebuttal. You simply said they will not let uncircumcized people in.

But we know that Christians, Arabs, Muslims, and Jews all are members of the Israeli government and are citizens of Israel. So your idea is completely debunked. All you have to do is look at the people in the government to know you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[JonC]

You mean like Elizabeth Warren?

Yes.... I was thinking of her when I wrote that post .

Actually I mean like people who are members of this indigenous group.

But Warren is a good place to start. She is less than 1% Native American. Most tribes consider 25% to be considered Native American.

On the other hand, Netanyahu's heretiage is primary Ashkenazi with traces of Sephardic ancestry (100% Jewish ancestory). BUT the DNA only shows his ancestors came from Judea. It does not detect their religion.

The Jews considered to be ethnic Jews have at least 30% Jewish heretiage (they come from the semetic tribes that lived in Judea).

And, on another topic, the Earth is not flat.

 

[Aaron]

You never offered a rebuttal. You simply said they will not let uncircumcized people in.

But we know that Christians, Arabs, Muslims, and Jews all are members of the Israeli government and are citizens of Israel. So your idea is completely debunked. All you have to do is look at the people in the government to know you have no idea what you are talking about.

I didn’t say Israel(TM) didn’t have non-Jewish citizens...and they aren't equal citizens. I said no one is received as a jew without it.

You obviously didn't peruse the evidence of the citizenship laws I posted.

I cued the video to the relevant spots, but don't feel you have to deprive yourself of the information contained in the entire feature.

The more you know.

And on another topic, Santa Clause isn't real.

 

[JonC]

I didn’t say Israel(TM) didn’t have non-Jewish citizens...and they aren't equal citizens. I said no one is received as a jew without it.

You obviously didn't peruse the evidence of the citizenship laws I posted.

I cued the video to the relevant spots, but don't feel you have to deprive yourself of the information contained in the entire feature.

The more you know.

And on another topic, Santa Clause isn't real.

The problem is you said that nobody is received as a Jew (ethnic) without being circumcised. This is not true (hence "a problem).

Jewish law (Halakha) considers uncircumcized Jews as fully Jewish.

 

[Ben1445]

And on another topic, Santa Clause isn't real.

!!!!!!!!

Santa Claus™ Israel™.

 

[Aaron]

The problem is you said that nobody is received as a Jew (ethnic) without being circumcised. This is not true (hence "a problem).

Jewish law (Halakha) considers uncircumcized Jews as fully Jewish.

There are exceptions in some Reform interpretations, but even among Reform Jews circumcision is required except in some situations.

You're just jumping across traditional and novel interpretations as if there's some consistency with each other or even with Moses, and it just isn't so.

But since you want to talk about Israel™ as if it's practices have any connection with the Israel of the Bible, or even Israel as defined by Judaism, let's talk about Israel.

I've had a book on my shelves for a number of years, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, by Jacob Neusner, a Reform rabbi. He was considered by many the foremost authority on Judaism in the first centuries of Christianity. His purpose was to explain why, if he were a Jew of the first Century, he would have rejected Jesus.

He spoke of the identity of Israel. There is an 'eternal Israel', by which he meant all Jews from Sinai forward, and of an 'Israel of the here and now,' by which he meant Jews practicing in a community. The Zionist state, is nowhere in sight. One's ethnicity is nowhere in sight. One's Jewishness is based on His connection to the law, not to the land, nor to his ethnicity. There is no ethnic Jew or nationalist Jew. Those are Zionist constructions.

Bibically, those born to Jews are Jews because of the Torah. Infants were circumcised because they were born to people in covenant with God, not because of their genealogies. So they were born Jews. Others became Jews by the observance of a carnal commandment. That's what it meant to be a Jew by nature, Gal. 2:15.

Back to the identity of Israel. The real Israel. Under the old covenant, it was the nation that entered into covenant with God by receiving the law. That old covenant has now been canceled. To try to resurrect it or to assert some aspect of it as still binding is antichrist. Israel is still the nation that has entered into covenant with God, but through the blood of Jesus, and not through the letter of the law. Those under the old covenant were Israel in childhood. Those who are in Christ, is the same Israel, but in adulthood. There is no other Israel. As some have already pointed out, he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, that is, a Jew by nature. But he is a Jew which is one inwardly, meaning by the Spirit, and circumcision is of the heart.

Biblically, that is the identity of Israel.

Jacob Neusner would have rejected Jesus, because, according to him, Jesus preached a different Israel than the Israel the Jews saw in the law, and a different kingdom, and a different temple...and Neusner was right.

Yakkov Shapiro, an Orthodox rabbi, In his book, The Empty Wagon, which now has a place on my shelves beside Neusner's book, begins his 1300 page tome with the question, What are the Jews? He said:

The Jewish religion is the only type of Jewishness that exists, and becoming more religious is the only Jewish goal.​

​

and​

​

If somehow it would be possible to take back the Torah from the Jewish people, there would then be no more Jews in the world.​

It really doesn't matter what Israel™ says and does, and even less what that genocidal Netanyahu thinks and does or what he puts forth as his ancestry. It's probably a lie anyway. It has nothing whatever to do with the traditional identity of the Jews, and even less with the Jews of the Bible.

 

[JonC]

There are exceptions in some Reform interpretations, but even among Reform Jews circumcision is required except in some situations.

You're just jumping across traditional and novel interpretations as if there's some consistency with each other or even with Moses, and it just isn't so.

But since you want to talk about Israel™ as if it's practices have any connection with the Israel of the Bible, or even Israel as defined by Judaism, let's talk about Israel.

I've had a book on my shelves for a number of years, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, by Jacob Neusner, a Reform rabbi. He was considered by many the foremost authority on Judaism in the first centuries of Christianity. His purpose was to explain why, if he were a Jew of the first Century, he would have rejected Jesus.

He spoke of the identity of Israel. There is an 'eternal Israel', by which he meant all Jews from Sinai forward, and of an 'Israel of the here and now,' by which he meant Jews practicing in a community. The Zionist state, is nowhere in sight. One's ethnicity is nowhere in sight. One's Jewishness is based on His connection to the law, not to the land, nor to his ethnicity. There is no ethnic Jew or nationalist Jew. Those are Zionist constructions.

Bibically, those born to Jews are Jews because of the Torah. Infants were circumcised because they were born to people in covenant with God, not because of their genealogies. So they were born Jews. Others became Jews by the observance of a carnal commandment. That's what it meant to be a Jew by nature, Gal. 2:15.

Back to the identity of Israel. The real Israel. Under the old covenant, it was the nation that entered into covenant with God by receiving the law. That old covenant has now been canceled. To try to resurrect it or to assert some aspect of it as still binding is antichrist. Israel is still the nation that has entered into covenant with God, but through the blood of Jesus, and not through the letter of the law. Those under the old covenant were Israel in childhood. Those who are in Christ, is the same Israel, but in adulthood. There is no other Israel. As some have already pointed out, he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, that is, a Jew by nature. But he is a Jew which is one inwardly, meaning by the Spirit, and circumcision is of the heart.

Biblically, that is the identity of Israel.

Jacob Neusner would have rejected Jesus, because, according to him, Jesus preached a different Israel than the Israel the Jews saw in the law, and a different kingdom, and a different temple...and Neusner was right.

Yakkov Shapiro, an Orthodox rabbi, In his book, The Empty Wagon, which now has a place on my shelves beside Neusner's book, begins his 1300 page tome with the question, What are the Jews? He said:

The Jewish religion is the only type of Jewishness that exists, and becoming more religious is the only Jewish goal.​

​

and​

​

If somehow it would be possible to take back the Torah from the Jewish people, there would then be no more Jews in the world.​

It really doesn't matter what Israel™ says and does, and even less what that genocidal Netanyahu thinks and does or what he puts forth as his ancestry. It's probably a lie anyway. It has nothing whatever to do with the traditional identity of the Jews, and even less with the Jews of the Bible.

No, I am not jumping across positions. I told you I was speaking of ethnic Jews and Israel (as a nation).

Yes, there are many sects in Judiasm and many do require circumcision in order to be a part of that sect. Many require more than circumcision.

BUT to be accepted as a Jew in Israel (in the nation of Israel) one does not have to be circumcised. One can be an ethnic Jew who is a Christian and enjoy the full rights of citizenship in Israel.


My point is we know that the Jewish citizens of Israel are decendents of those who once lived in Judea. We know that Israel is their ancestral home.



I am not one of those who thinks Israel does no wrong. They are not a Christian nation.

But I also believe we need to guard against antisemitic propaganda (like the Jews in Israel today are not decendents of the Jews of yesterday). They were and are a persecuted people. And, per Scripture, they still play some role (as an ethnic group) in God's plan.

 

[Aaron]

No, I am not jumping across positions. I told you I was speaking of ethnic Jews and Israel (as a nation).

Yes, there are many sects in Judiasm and many do require circumcision in order to be a part of that sect. Many require more than circumcision.

BUT to be accepted as a Jew in Israel (in the nation of Israel) one does not have to be circumcised. One can be an ethnic Jew who is a Christian and enjoy the full rights of citizenship in Israel.

Well, you're just not listening.

My point is we know that the Jewish citizens of Israel are decendents of those who once lived in Judea.

Well, if you're going to call pasty white Europeans Hebrews, I guess Elizabeth Warren is a Cherokee, and, heck, I'm a Noahite.

So?

We know that Israel is their ancestral home.

It's the ancestral home of lots of peoples. So?

I am not one of those who thinks Israel does no wrong. They are not a Christian nation.

But I also believe we need to guard against antisemitic propaganda (like the Jews in Israel today are not decendents of the Jews of yesterday). They were and are a persecuted people. And, per Scripture, they still play some role (as an ethnic group) in God's plan.

A lot of question begging in there, but Zionist propaganda is the real poison. I have no doubt that I will present several arguments that you would want to dismiss as "antisemtic," whatever that means since last Tuesday, but fear not I will be sure to be yielding the microphone to those, like Yaakov Shapiro, who are certified Jewish enough to criticize Israel™.

 

[JonC]

Well, if you're going to call pasty white Europeans Hebrews, I guess Elizabeth Warren is a Cherokee, and, heck, I'm a Noahite.

Lol... you were not paying attention.

We cannot call Warren a Cherokee because her ethnicity is not Cherokee.

But we can call the modern Jews in Israel "Jewish" because their ethnicity is substantially from a Judean ancestry.

Yes, many have a mixed ancestry. But there is a difference between Warren's less than .5% native American and 50%+.

When a people is displaced (here we are talking an entire race of people) for centuries it is kinda stupid to think none of them would not marry outside of their ethnicity (especially when that was acceptable in Judiasm). But it is amazing how much Jewish ethnicity remained intact.

I suppose a lot has to do with the Jews being a commonly persecuted people. Perhaps this is why you see today's Jews with such strong ethnic ties to Judea.


Suppose your ancestors were from Sodom and we knew their DNA markers. Even if they intermarried, if your markers proved your ethnicity to be significantly from that area then you would be a Sodomite. It would not matter how your skin looked. By appearances you could look African. But you would also be, ethnically, a Sodomite.



Your mistake was your racism. You cannot judge by the color of skin.

I have a niece who looks Asian. Her grandmother is Asian. But another looks white, with blue eyes. But they are sisters and share other features of both parents.

You would say one has Asian ancestry while the other does not. But that is because you are a racist who judges people by the color of their skin.


Now what we are talking about is a nation comprised if people who were displaced for centuries through persecution, but have maintained surprisingly intact as an ethnic group. We are talking about their right to exist as a people.

Current and past antisemitism pretty much solidify the Israeli population as Jews.

The Romans could not erase them. The Nazi's could not erase them. I seriously doubt that an antisemite like you will achieve what they could not.

But ultimately it is none of our business. Israel considered people "Jews" long before DNA and it was not based on being an ethnic Jew (they combined factors). This is how a Moabite woman is a Jewish hero.