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- Thread starter Anthony Pritchard
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
What has been slanderous and incorrect?
The "sin is inherited from Adam" (as opposed to "death spread to all men for all have sinned") came from post-Augustine Catholic doctrine. Augustine built a doctrine based on a Latin mistranslation which grew into the Catholic doctrine).
You are, of course, right. My post was an attempt at irony, but clearly it went astray. My point was that if you and @Ascetic X can be so wildly inaccurate about Calvinism and what it actually is, how can any of us have confidence in your understanding of the Bible?
What I find ironic is that you and @JonC are always talking about just using the words of Scripture, and how wonderful it is to rely purely on that, and yet you can find no agreement and end up in a shouting match.
The fact is that the people who talk about 'just Scripture' are usually heretics. The JWs do it all the time. At the beginning of the 18th Century, there was a great upsurge in Unitarianism and those who were leading that insisted on only using the words of Scripture. BUt when people asked them what they understood by those words, they became very coy. I wrote an article on the subject and then putit on my blog. You can read it here: Learning The Lessons of History (1)
Learning the Lessons of History (2)
[Read first I am sure that I cannot be alone in seeing remarkable parallels between the early 18th Century and today. In our own time we have seen a marked decline in Christian orthodoxy and teac…
marprelate.wordpress.com
@DaveXR650 recommended a fine book by Iain Murray, Spurgeon Vs. Hyper-Calvinism, published by Banner of Truth. I also recommend another book by the same author and publisher, The Forgotten Spurgeon. This book covers the 'Baptismal Regeneration' controversy of 1864, and also the 'Downgrade' controversy of Spurgeon's final years. But most interestingly for you, @Ascetic X and others is his defence of Calvinism against the wretched, diluted gospel fashionable in London in the 1850s.
Here is a very brief sample of Spurgeon's early preaching. His text was Galatians 1:15: 'It pleased God.'
'You will perceive, I think, in these words, that the divine plan of salvation is very clearly laid down. It begins, you see, in the will and pleasure of God: "When it pleased God." THe foundation of salvation is not laid down in the will of man. It does begin with man's obedience, and the proceed on to the purpose of God; but here is its commencement, here the fountain-head from which the living waters flow: "It pleased God." Next to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God comes the act of separation, commonly known by the name of election. This act is said in the text to take place even in the mother's womb, by which we are taught that it took place before our birth when as yet we could have done nothing whatever to win it or to merit it. God separated us from the earliest part and time of our being; and indeed, long before that, when as yet the mountains and hills were not piled, and the oceans were not formed by His creative power, he had, in His eternal purpose, set us apart for Himself. Then, after this act of separation came the effectual calling: "and called me by His grace"........'
I could not care less whether Calvinism is 'historical Christian Doctrine.' I will let you and the Roman Catholics worry about that.
I care that it is Biblical Christian Doctrine, which it most certainly is.
Anthony Pritchard
Active Member
Exactly. I’ve studied the early churches for years, and predestinarianism simply isn’t there. The first known instance of a church adopting anything like unconditional election or monergistic grace appears only in the North African Latin churches influenced by Augustine, beginning around 397–430 AD. That’s when Augustine developed and promoted his new doctrine of predestination.
Before Augustine, no church, Greek or Latin, held anything resembling later predestinarianism. That isn’t opinion; it’s the consensus of historical scholarship. The early fathers consistently taught real human freedom, universal atonement, and resistible grace. The shift toward determinism begins with Augustine, not with the apostles and not with the early churches.
Anthony Pritchard
Active Member
Martin, that response simply sidesteps the point. When a doctrine has no presence in the first churches, no presence in the apostolic communities, no presence in the Greek East, no presence in the Latin West before Augustine, and no presence in any creed or council for four centuries, it is entirely fair to ask why.
If a doctrine is truly “Biblical Christian Doctrine,” then the churches founded by the apostles, taught by the apostles, and discipled by the apostles should have held it. But they didn’t. Not one of them. The first church at Jerusalem didn’t teach it. The Greek churches never taught it. The Latin churches didn’t teach it until Augustine introduced it in the late 4th–early 5th century.
So the historical question matters because it exposes whether a doctrine is apostolic or post‑apostolic. Calvinism is post‑apostolic. It begins with Augustine, not with Scripture, not with the apostles, and not with the early churches.
You’re free to believe Augustine’s system if you want, but calling it “Biblical Christian Doctrine” requires more than asserting it. The burden is to show where the apostles taught it and where the churches they founded ever believed it. History shows they didn’t.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Calvinists consistently deny the simple, clear statements of scripture.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Calvinists: Every man does not mean every single man. It means only every elect man.
2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Calvinists: Died for all does not mean everyone. It means all the elect only.
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Calvinists: The whole world does not mean everybody in the world. It means just the elect.
I Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Calvinists: All men does not mean every single man. It means only some men, who are the elect.
The "isms" are based on logic (these "theologies" are just as much philosophy as they are theology. Logic is the science of reasoning while philosophy is the rational study of subjects.
The problem is both are natural wisdom. Logically if a bush is on fire it will be consumed. The problem is God is Spirit. He is above nature.
When people read words they often "see" things that are not there. This is because of their philosophy (their understanding of reality, their worldviews).
For example, one can read "Jesus bore our sins bodily" and understand the sentence. Jesus bore our sins bodily. BUT some would see a substitution (Jesus took our sins from us and bore those sins bodily).
The logic is flawed becausw what is being "seen" is not actually in the text. It is instead in the mind of the reader who projects it into the text.
Logic is the ointment we use to work our Scripture. But the fly in the ointment is what we "see" that is not there. People see different things (different "flies"). So they use the same human wisdom and arrive at very different places.
The only true doctrine is God's words, not what people see, not what they think os taught, not what a passage means to them. The actual biblical text.
Scripture does not teach anything except the words of God, "what is written", the "faith once delivered".
The problem is both are natural wisdom. Logically if a bush is on fire it will be consumed. The problem is God is Spirit. He is above nature.
When people read words they often "see" things that are not there. This is because of their philosophy (their understanding of reality, their worldviews).
For example, one can read "Jesus bore our sins bodily" and understand the sentence. Jesus bore our sins bodily. BUT some would see a substitution (Jesus took our sins from us and bore those sins bodily).
The logic is flawed becausw what is being "seen" is not actually in the text. It is instead in the mind of the reader who projects it into the text.
Logic is the ointment we use to work our Scripture. But the fly in the ointment is what we "see" that is not there. People see different things (different "flies"). So they use the same human wisdom and arrive at very different places.
The only true doctrine is God's words, not what people see, not what they think os taught, not what a passage means to them. The actual biblical text.
Scripture does not teach anything except the words of God, "what is written", the "faith once delivered".
Alan Dale Gross
Well-Known Member
Being "blotted out of the Book of Life"
Since, you don't know what a sinner is, by saying the first two at the top on the right could not possibly be seen all through the Bible, through the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Bible is drenched with those teachings. A sinner is one who is blind to the Word and dead to God, Spiritually, since they have no Devine Nature with which to relate directly to God, Who is Spirit, in the Spirit Realm.
God Chose that "by the foolishness of preaching (the Gospel)" lost souls would be saved.
"For after that in the Wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,
it Pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." I Corinthians 1:21.
God uses the Message of bragging on His Son and His Fully Accomplished Eternal Plan of Salvation, by Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and when God has a lost sinner under the teaching of the Gospel and telling what Jesus did for sinners just like them, the Holy Spirit may convict the lost soul of their sin and Grant them the Repentance of their sins which where Placed on Jesus and caused His death, with the Grace to take sides with God against themselves, and turn from their sins, while also Giving the formally Spiritually dead soul, in the region of the mind below conscience, the Spiritual Gift of Faith to believe Jesus died for them, personally, by the New Birth from Above.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the Power of God." I Corinthians 1:18.
God has the preacher in place every time, or the Message of the Gospel dispensed in other ways, when God then has the lost sinner under the Eternal Word of God, if He is Pleased by the Power of His Will to Make the formally lost sinner to be Willing in the Day of His Power, and
it Pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe,"
"For the preaching of the cross" ..."to us which are saved it is the Power of God."
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that Sheweth Mercy.
God Brings Glory to the Triune Godhead by Quickening the Spiritually dead sinner, who was "dead in trespasses and sins", while that lost sinner's soul is under the preaching of How Jesus is THE SAVIOR, Who they now need, to save their soul from their sin.
That is How God Saves otherwise hopeless, wicked, God-Hating, Spiritually dead wretches who are nothing but an Affront to God and Violating His Universal Moral Law and Eternal Holiness at all times, when He Finds them heaped in sin and then Irresistibly Calls them as He had Elijah preach to the dry bones and like when Jesus Irresistibly Called Lazarus from his State of death, and Raised him up, back to Life and how God Struck Paul Down with the New Birth.
The Word of God is Accompanied by the Holy Spirit, at all times, and is Alive.
"It is the Spirit that Quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
the Words that I Speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life," John 6:63.
"The concept of the Power Inherent in God's Word is a Central Theme throughout the Bible, underscoring the Bible's Divine Authority, Transformative Ability, and Enduring Truth. The Scriptures, as the Word of God, are not merely Historical Documents or literary works; they are Living and Active, Imbued with the Power to Effect Change in the hearts and lives of individuals and communities."
Topical Bible: The Power of God's Word
"So shall My Word be that Goeth Forth out of My Mouth:
it shall not return unto me void, but it shall Accomplish that which I Please,
and it shall Prosper in the thing whereto I Sent it," Isaiah 55:11.
But, you must first know what a sinner is and why they need a Savior.
Anthony Pritchard
Active Member
Alan, none of what you wrote actually addresses the point I made. You simply restated the Calvinist system, but the question on the table was the Book of Life and the historical record of the early churches.
The issue is simple:
If the sinner is spiritually dead in the sense of total inability, then the warnings about being blotted out of the Book of Life make no sense. You cannot “blot out” someone who was never written there. Yet Scripture says the names begin there and are removed only by unbelief. That alone contradicts unconditional election.
And historically, the early churches did not teach the system you just described. Not Jerusalem. Not Antioch. Not Alexandria. Not the Greek churches. Not even the Latin churches until Augustine introduced his new interpretation in the late 4th–early 5th century.
So the question remains: If Calvinism is the biblical doctrine of salvation, why did none of the apostolic churches ever teach it?
Quoting verses about preaching, conviction, and the power of God’s Word doesn’t answer that. I believe all of those things. But none of those passages teach irresistible grace, total inability, or unconditional election. Those are later theological constructions, not apostolic doctrine.
If you want to discuss the actual point, the Book of Life and the historical record, I’m glad to do that. But simply repeating the Calvinist framework doesn’t resolve the issue.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
When I said that Calvinist preaching commands people to believe the gospel and trust in Christ, and gave examples, continuing to repeat the above, without providing evidence showing otherwise, is slanderous and incorrect.
I don't mind if you bring up perceived inconstancies, or contradictions, or point out the differences in the understanding of this theology even among Calvinists. But where do you get the right to just make these outrageous claims, then just blow off statements with references that refute those claims, and repeat the same extreme and ridiculous charges in the next post you make? And then you wonder why we don't have civil discussions on here.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
That can be true. It can also be true that what they are doing is remembering other scriptures that seem to say something different and in trying to keep these things straight eventually develop theologies. Of course it's because of their understanding of reality. Any human who claims to be so pure and open minded that they (and usually it's claimed that they alone) have a proper view of the meaning of the pure scripture is either deranged or lying. That's how all the cults start.
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.[Philippians 4:13]
By using the same eisegesis as you did in the above, we can commit rape, murder, molestation, lie, commit adultery and idolatry, take the Lord's name in vain, steal, &c through Him who strengthens us. Because doing all things through Him literally means all things, right? "All means all, and that is all that all means."
Anthony Pritchard
Active Member
Dave, the issue isn’t slander or tone. The issue is doctrine. Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate are unable to repent, unable to believe, and unable to respond to God in any way unless they are first regenerated. That is not a controversial summary, it is the standard TULIP framework.
If a person must be regenerated before they can believe, then the universal biblical commands to repent and believe cannot be taken at face value. That is the inconsistency being pointed out.
You’re welcome to defend the Calvinist interpretation, but simply calling the description “outrageous” or “slanderous” doesn’t answer the doctrinal point. If you believe Calvinism does not teach total inability, irresistible grace, or regeneration preceding faith, then say so plainly and we can discuss it.
But if it does teach those things, and it does, then the objection stands.
Anthony Pritchard
Active Member
Sovereigngrace, Philippians 4:13 is not a doctrinal statement about the scope of salvation. It’s a figure of speech about enduring circumstances. Paul is not saying he can commit every possible action “through Christ,” and everyone understands that.
The verses cited, Hebrews 2:9, 2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 John 2:2, and 1 Timothy 2:4, are not figures of speech. They are doctrinal statements about the extent of Christ’s death and God’s saving will. They use universal language in a universal context.
Comparing a metaphor about endurance to doctrinal statements about atonement isn’t an analogy, it’s a category mistake.
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Anthony Pritchard
Active Member
Sovereigngrace, I appreciate the use of the word eisegesis, but simply saying the term isn’t the same as showing it. If you believe the passages quoted are being misread, then demonstrate it from the text. Otherwise, the word is just floating there without an argument attached to it.
Alan Dale Gross
Well-Known Member
Your staunch wooden letterism grants that "He by the Grace of God should Taste death for every man" Provides Salvation for "every man" and makes no accommodation for any women or children to be saved, because the Bible only says "every man", as long as there is no possibility of bringing any other meaning of the verse under consideration.
You have "every", literally dyed in wool, but you also have "man".
What are you going to say, now? That "man" doesn't mean "man"?
"All" means "all", no matter what else God or anyone else has to say about it* (note below, to see just exactly what God has to Say about it) and "men" means "men", then, logically following your reasoning you're doing, using a mind that has been effected by the Fall of Adam, without the aid of the Holy Spirit, TO A POSITION THAT CALLS FOR THE EXCLUSION OF ALL WOMEN AND ALL CHILDREN FROM BEING SAVED, SINCE ONLY "ALL MEN" ARE INCLUDED IN GOD 'WILLING' THEM TO BE SAVED..
The literal interpretation fallacy (often called the literalism fallacy) occurs when a text, statement, or idea is interpreted strictly by the exact dictionary definitions of its words, completely ignoring context, authorial intent, figurative language, irony, or genre.
Scholars emphasize integrating historical, grammatical, and literary contexts for accurate interpretation.
"1 Timothy 2:4;
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
"Who will have all men to be saved,...."
"The Salvation which God Wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a Salvable State; or an Offer of Salvation to them; or a Proposal of Sufficient Means of of Eternal Salvation to all in His Word;
But "The Salvation which God Wills that all men should enjoy" is a Real, Certain, and Actual Salvation, which He has Determined they shall have; and is sure from His Own Appointment, from the Provision of Christ as a Savior for them, from the Covenant of Grace, in which everything is Secured necessary for the Eternal Salvation of human souls, and from the Mission of Christ to Effect the Eternal Salvation of human souls, and from Eternal Salvation being Effected by Him:
"wherefore the Will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a Conditional Will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved;
Note: If Salvation is dependent on the individual sinner, it would be impossible for anyone to get saved.
"and if any should "be saved", it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but God has an Absolute and Unconditional Will respecting their salvation, and which Infallibly Secures Eternal Salvation:
"nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God Wills the salvation of all men, as they are His Creatures, and the Work of His Hands; and with the latter He Wills Salvation, or not Wills Salvation, according to the future conduct and behaviour of sin-cursed individuals;
"But the Will of God concerning man's Salvation is Entirely One, Invariable, Unalterable, and Unchangeable: nor is the Will of God concerning man's Salvation merely His Will of Approbation or Complacency, which expresses only what would be Grateful and Well Pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled;
"However, it is God's Ordaining, Purposing, and Determining Will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always Accomplished: the Will of God, the Sovereign and Unfrustrable Will of God, has the Governing Sway and Influence in the Salvation of men;
Eternal Salvation rises from God's Ordaining, Purposing, and Determining Will, and is according to the Will of God, the Sovereign and Unfrustrable Will of God, which Absolutely has the Governing Sway and Influence in the Salvation of men;
"and all who are saved God Wills they should be saved;
"nor are any saved, but whom He Wills they should be saved:
"hence by "all men", whom God would have saved,
cannot be meant every individual of mankind,
since it is not His Will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved,
unless there are Two Contrary Wills in God;
Note: For anyone to think God is Saying He wants every individual of mankind to be saved is impossible.
"for there are some who were before Ordained by Him unto Condemnation*, and are Vessels of Wrath fitted for destruction**; and it is His Will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned;
"nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was His Will they should; for who hath resisted His Will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into Everlasting Punishment:
"rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1* are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved;
I Timothy 2:1; " I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
There is the expression "all men" in the verse above and it shows exactly who is intended by those words "all men" and it is those who are to be prayed for:
2; "For kings, and for "all" that are in authority;
The Bible says there in this next verse that it is talking about "all who are in authority
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in "all" Godliness and Honesty."
And if "all" always means "all" then someone is getting an extra Portion here for them to obtain the Grace of having "all" without exception "GODLINESS AND HONESTY". That is a lot. U think?
3; "For this is Good and Acceptable in the Sight of God our Savior;"
It is "Good and Acceptable in the Sight of God our Savior" for them to pray for "all men".
Adapted from 1 Timothy 2 Gill's Exposition and there plenty other good stuff there concerning these verses.
I am showing that all does not mean anything and everything. Just like a dad tells his child to not eat all the cookies. Obviously, all the cookies does not mean every cookie ever made, or every cookie in existence world wide at that particular time, but all the cookies in the box/bag.