• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Unbelief vs Belief ?

rstrats

Member
Site Supporter
You’re defining belief as an instantaneous mental flip...
It has to be. You can't believe something and at the same time not believe the same something. There has to an instant when the one state of mind changes to the other.
, as if faith were the ability to conjure conviction out of thin air.
If a belief can be engendered by simply choosing to have it, then thick air/evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases maybe - but not necessary.
That is not what belief is. Scripture presents belief as assent to truth when confronted with evidence...
How do you know when you have enough evidence? And what is the state of your mind at that moment with regard to the issue at hand?
No one can “choose” to believe in leprechauns because there is no truth to respond to.
If you know the truth about something it's too late to choose to believe it because you alredy do.
 

rstrats

Member
Site Supporter
You’ve gone and shifted the goalpost again.
What goalpost has been changed?
Belief isn’t a physical skill that can be performed on command. It’s the mind responding to truth when confronted with it. You demonstrate belief by accepting truth, rejecting falsehood, and acting on conviction. If you’re asking for something else, then you’re no longer asking about belief as Scripture defines it.
How does scripture define it? I define it as a conviction that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true.
 

Anthony Pritchard

Active Member
It has to be. You can't believe something and at the same time not believe the same something. There has to an instant when the one state of mind changes to the other.

If a belief can be engendered by simply choosing to have it, then thick air/evidence is not necessary - prudent in some cases maybe - but not necessary.

How do you know when you have enough evidence? And what is the state of your mind at that moment with regard to the issue at hand?

If you know the truth about something it's too late to choose to believe it because you alredy do.
Not to get drawn into your revolving circle of definitions, but...

You’re assuming that belief is a binary switch that flips in a single instant. But Scripture never defines belief as an instantaneous mental event. It defines belief as assent to truth when confronted with it. The moment of assent may be brief, but the process is not a magical flip, it’s the mind responding to truth.

You also keep assuming that choosing to believe means “creating conviction out of thin air.” That isn’t what anyone is claiming. Belief responds to truth, evidence, testimony, and the illumination of the Spirit. Choosing to believe simply means choosing to accept truth when it is presented, not inventing truth where none exists.

As for “how much evidence” is needed, that varies by person and by issue. But the state of mind at the moment of belief is simple: the person accepts the truth of the matter. That acceptance is the act of belief. It isn’t a performance, and it isn’t instantaneous imagination, it’s assent.

And again, no one can choose to believe in leprechauns because there is no truth to respond to. Belief responds to truth, not fantasy.
What goalpost has been changed?

How does scripture define it? I define it as a conviction that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true.
You’re asking what goalpost changed. You shifted from asking for a demonstration of choosing belief to asking for a definition of belief itself. Those are not the same question.

As for how Scripture defines belief: It does so consistently, it presents belief as assent to truth when confronted with it. Abraham “believed God.” The Samaritans “believed His word.” The jailer “believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.” In every case, belief is accepting the truth of what God has said. It is not defined as an instantaneous mental flip, nor as conjuring conviction out of thin air.

Your definition, “a conviction that something is or isn’t true”, is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn’t address the question you originally asked. The issue isn’t the definition of belief; the issue is whether a person can accept truth when it is presented. Scripture says they can, and it commands them to do so.
 

Anthony Pritchard

Active Member
What goalpost has been changed?

How does scripture define it? I define it as a conviction that someone or something does or doesn't exist or that a certain proposition is or isn't true.
Friend, you’re not engaging anymore. You’re cycling through a fixed set of definitions, and once those are exhausted the conversation can’t progress.

At this point the only moves remaining for you are repeating the same slogans, re‑asking the same questions, redefining the same terms, or shifting to a new angle that still leads back to the same loop.

Your options now are simple: define belief the way Scripture actually uses the term, or retreat into a private dictionary, or change the subject. I’ve had this exact exchange more times than I can count over the last forty years, and I can almost anticipate your replies before you post them.

It’s time to give this one a rest and let it go.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
More sloganism Brother.

Not, Brother.

Conviction is the result of belief, not the definition of belief.

<sigh>

1​

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Heb 11

Scripture never presents faith as a passive state that descends on a person.

<sigh>

8​

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2

3​

For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith. Ro 12
It presents belief as a human act,

Tony's version:

8​

for by grace works have ye been saved through faith an act of the creature; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift work of God man; Eph 2
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Not, Brother.



<sigh>

1​

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Heb 11



<sigh>

8​

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2

3​

For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith. Ro 12


Tony's version:

8​

for by grace works have ye been saved through faith an act of the creature; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift work of God man; Eph 2
Oh brother
 

Anthony Pritchard

Active Member
Not, Brother.



<sigh>

1​

Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen. Heb 11



<sigh>

8​

for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2

3​

For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith. Ro 12


Tony's version:

8​

for by grace works have ye been saved through faith an act of the creature; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift work of God man; Eph 2
Hebrews 11:1 says faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It does not define faith as conviction. Conviction is the result of believing, not the definition of believing. Scripture commands men to believe, repent, and come, which presupposes genuine human agency, not passivity.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I didn't ask you to. I asked you to demonstrate your ability. You have yet to do that.

The bible does that quite clearly if you are willing to actually trust what it says.

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
 

Anthony Pritchard

Active Member
Actually faith is based on obtaining a set of facts/information regarding something and then making the choice to believe or not believe those facts.

Conviction is having an unshakable trust in those facts and the resulting faith/belief.
Silverhair, that’s the correct order. Belief is the act of trusting truth when confronted with it; conviction is the settled assurance that follows. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as substance and evidence, not conviction.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Probably a conviction, of the Spirit!

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin not unto faith. Knowing that you are a sinner does not mean that you will trust in God.

But we do see where Paul writing to the Thessalonians says that he had presented the gospel to them with full conviction/assurance. 1Th 1:5
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hebrews 11:1 says faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It does not define faith as conviction. Conviction is the result of believing, not the definition of believing. Scripture commands men to believe, repent, and come, which presupposes genuine human agency, not passivity.

So, someone could convince you to believe in leprechauns? Did someone convince Saul that Jesus is Jehovah?
 
Top