When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

Greetings to all my brothers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for some clarity on this issue from others (thoughts, observations, critiques). To be revealing, I'm going to restrict considerations to the Holy Scripture only and to the words in it. In other words, I'm trying not to infer to much, if anything.

My dilemma/challenge is this... I don't see where the biblical text indicates that Satan fell "significantly prior" to the deception act in the Garden of Eden. In fact, it seems to me that the biblical text records Satan's first "sinful work" as being in the Garden. Although one might logically concede that the thought preceded the act, i.e., the sin of pride comes before the sinful act of deception.

First: Created in exalted position near God.
Second: Iniquity found in Satan (this timing seems to be the only speculative part).
Third: First act of Overt Rebellion recorded, the garden of Eden.
Fourth: Satan falls from grace and cursed.

The part I find most compelling is that Genesis 3:14 explicitly tells us "because you have done this" you are cursed. Satan was cursed because of his deception of Eve. To be cursed seems to suggest one is not already cursed. In the same context, Adam was cursed due to his first sin, Eve was cursed from her first sin. Both previously not cursed and in God's good grace.

Any verses, thoughts?

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6).

Paleouss said:

Greetings to all my brothers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for some clarity on this issue from others (thoughts, observations, critiques). To be revealing, I'm going to restrict considerations to the Holy Scripture only and to the words in it. In other words, I'm trying not to infer to much, if anything.

My dilemma/challenge is this... I don't see where the biblical text indicates that Satan fell "significantly prior" to the deception act in the Garden of Eden. In fact, it seems to me that the biblical text records Satan's first "sinful work" as being in the Garden. Although one might logically concede that the thought preceded the act, i.e., the sin of pride comes before the sinful act of deception.

First: Created in exalted position near God.
Second: Iniquity found in Satan (this timing seems to be the only speculative part).
Third: First act of Overt Rebellion recorded, the garden of Eden.
Fourth: Satan falls from grace and cursed.

The part I find most compelling is that Genesis 3:14 explicitly tells us "because you have done this" you are cursed. Satan was cursed because of his deception of Eve. To be cursed seems to suggest one is not already cursed. In the same context, Adam was cursed due to his first sin, Eve was cursed from her first sin. Both previously not cursed and in God's good grace.

Any verses, thoughts?

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6).

Click to expand...

Defining when a thought becomes a sin according to the scriptures. It is defined very clearly in James 1.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin is connected to an act.

Having said that, the serpent was in the garden and everything so far is said by God to be good and the serpent is standing upright. So, his act of tempting Eve to disobey God is the finish of the lust, which is to usurp the dominion of the earth from Adam.

The principalities and powers in heavenly places, the stars of God, were created on the 4th day.

Satan was created in one of the creation days and all evidences points to day 4.

Here is the evidence plainly stated. You should read the context.

EZ 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

His unchallenged usurpation of the dominion of the earth was clearly confirmed in his temptation of Jesus when he attempted to intice him with the gift of the kingdoms of the earth and the glory of them.

Matt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Ps 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Paleouss said:

When was Satan's Fall From Grace?​

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God provoked Satan to jealousy by inserting Adam into the garden and giving him dominion.

Satan 'fell' by orchestrating 'the fall'.

Greetings JD

JD731 said:

Defining when a thought becomes a sin according to the scriptures. It is defined very clearly in James 1.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin is connected to an act.

Click to expand...

Isn't one of the commandments, "you shall not covet"? Which is an envious desire. This would seem to not be an "act" (if I read you correctly). Paul speaks to coveting being a sin in Romans 7:7. Jesus says that if you lust in your heart one has already committed adultery of the heart Matt 5:28 (seems like a sin).

I agree with the verse from James, thanks.

JD731 said:

Having said that, the serpent was in the garden and everything so far is said by God to be good and the serpent is standing upright. So, his act of tempting Eve to disobey God is the finish of the lust, which is to usurp the dominion of the earth from Adam.

Click to expand...

This seems to be how I see it as well.


Thanks for your time brother

Paleouss said:

Greetings to all my brothers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am looking for some clarity on this issue from others (thoughts, observations, critiques). To be revealing, I'm going to restrict considerations to the Holy Scripture only and to the words in it. In other words, I'm trying not to infer to much, if anything.

My dilemma/challenge is this... I don't see where the biblical text indicates that Satan fell "significantly prior" to the deception act in the Garden of Eden. In fact, it seems to me that the biblical text records Satan's first "sinful work" as being in the Garden. Although one might logically concede that the thought preceded the act, i.e., the sin of pride comes before the sinful act of deception.

First: Created in exalted position near God.
Second: Iniquity found in Satan (this timing seems to be the only speculative part).
Third: First act of Overt Rebellion recorded, the garden of Eden.
Fourth: Satan falls from grace and cursed.

The part I find most compelling is that Genesis 3:14 explicitly tells us "because you have done this" you are cursed. Satan was cursed because of his deception of Eve. To be cursed seems to suggest one is not already cursed. In the same context, Adam was cursed due to his first sin, Eve was cursed from her first sin. Both previously not cursed and in God's good grace.

Any verses, thoughts?

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6).

Click to expand...

We have the passages in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 but these are speaking of kings (Babylon and Tyre respectively). I believe these passages are speaking of Satan as well as these earthly kings but there are some who disagree and therefore, the origin of Satan becomes uncertain. He is a real being though and is part of God's creation and being God's creation, he most certainly was "Good" at one point.

Gap theorists (Larkin and Scofield for example) believe that the "Pre-Adamite" creation was destroyed as a consequence of the fall of Lucifer and his angels and they were basically lying in wait for God to "recreate" the heavens and the earth in the six days as recorded in Genesis 1. If one holds to such a position, one must ask whether this "re-creation" was actually "good and very good" as the scriptures declare.

My personal position on the matter is that the fall of Lucifer occurred somewhere between Gen 1:31 and 3:1. There is nothing which determines the span of time that had elapsed. Perhaps it was a few days or could have even been several years.

The "Serpent" was evidently one of the creatures of which Satan either took "Possession" of or perhaps he manifest himself in the form of a serpent? Either way, it was most certainly the Devil who tempted Eve in the garden which ultimately led to the fall of which Adam was blamed. It also seems quite clear that Satan had already fallen when he appeared before Adam and Eve tempting them. Note also that there was grace for both Adam and Eve but only judgment and condemnation for the serpent. Even in the age to come when all things are made new, the serpent will continue to slither on the ground and eat dust (Isa 65:25). It is therefore understood that it was the actual creature that was cursed.

Note also that God only spoke of Eve's consequences in Gen 3:16 but condemned Adam's actions along with the consequences. In other words, Adam is the one who is held responsible, not Eve but Eve suffers nonetheless due to Adam's sin of passivity!

Paleouss said:

Greetings JD

Isn't one of the commandments, "you shall not covet"? Which is an envious desire. This would seem to not be an "act" (if I read you correctly). Paul speaks to coveting being a sin in Romans 7:7. Jesus says that if you lust in your heart one has already committed adultery of the heart Matt 5:28 (seems like a sin).

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Here is where every sinner who is not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb will stand and notice the wording in the text. I will highlight the words I think you should consider particularly.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

They were not said to be judged according to their thoughts. Lust is not a work.

Adultery is a good example. A person who commits adultery thinks about it first and allows the thought to become a deed. It is not a sin until it becomes a deed.

Here are the words of Paul on this very subject:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

He is speaking of himself desiring to keep the law by his own will and finding he does not have the power until he receives the Spirit.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It takes the flesh to sin. If we think wrong we will do wrong.

Paul did this by the indwelling power of the Spirit;

2 Cor 19:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Armchair Apologist said:

We have the passages in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 but these are speaking of kings (Babylon and Tyre respectively). I believe these passages are speaking of Satan as well as these earthly kings but there are some who disagree and therefore, the origin of Satan becomes uncertain. He is a real being though and is part of God's creation and being God's creation, he most certainly was "Good" at one point.

Gap theorists (Larkin and Scofield for example) believe that the "Pre-Adamite" creation was destroyed as a consequence of the fall of Lucifer and his angels and they were basically lying in wait for God to "recreate" the heavens and the earth in the six days as recorded in Genesis 1. If one holds to such a position, one must ask whether this "re-creation" was actually "good and very good" as the scriptures declare.

My personal position on the matter is that the fall of Lucifer occurred somewhere between Gen 1:31 and 3:1. There is nothing which determines the span of time that had elapsed. Perhaps it was a few days or could have even been several years.

The "Serpent" was evidently one of the creatures of which Satan either took "Possession" of or perhaps he manifest himself in the form of a serpent? Either way, it was most certainly the Devil who tempted Eve in the garden which ultimately led to the fall of which Adam was blamed. It also seems quite clear that Satan had already fallen when he appeared before Adam and Eve tempting them. Note also that there was grace for both Adam and Eve but only judgment and condemnation for the serpent. Even in the age to come when all things are made new, the serpent will continue to slither on the ground and eat dust (Isa 65:25). It is therefore understood that it was the actual creature that was cursed.

Note also that God only spoke of Eve's consequences in Gen 3:16 but condemned Adam's actions along with the consequences. In other words, Adam is the one who is held responsible, not Eve but Eve suffers nonetheless due to Adam's sin of passivity!

Click to expand...

I do not hold to those rulers being typologies of Satan's fall, but showing how when lifted up in pride, their fall will soon happen. These are examples to us all to not let pride be our demise.

King Nebuchadnezzar
King of Babylon (I think this is Belshazzar)
King of Tyre

Here are three perfect examples of how pride goes before the fall.

God provides information on a "need to know" basis.
The Scriptures are God's revelation to mankind, providing what we need to know for the purpose of our salvation.
Satan's downfall is outside the purview of salvific revelation.

Any answers to the question of Satan's fall are mere theory and speculation.

My personal speculation is related to the chiastic nature of revelation; the best hope for some clarity on the issue may be hidden within the book of Revelation.

Rob