Does God want to stay hidden?

Come on, dear friend. Go back and read every post I have sent to you. You received the Holy Spirit the precise moment that you received Christ as Savior. God doesn't hide. We drift in and out of fellowship through doubt, fear, misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture. WE hide.

He'll never let you go!

:thumbs:

 

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:25-27 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

There is no escaping the fact that God is the "God who is distant". Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden - and no longer walked with God as they did In the Garden.

Today we do NOT have the pillar of fire by night and the cloud by day. Imagine having the Urim and Thumim on the priests breastplate that LIGHTS UP yes and NO for the various decisions from God!

Imagine camping around the Most Holy Place with the fire of God inside - the very presence of God.

But notice how much "CONSUMING of the Congregation" ALSO took place then that does not happen now? God says "I will draw near for JUDGMENT".

You can not GO to God's very precense and expect to CLING to rebellion and half-way conversion the way we do today.

And don't think that these examples are NOT fully embracing the Gospel. These Heb 11 saints were not under "ANOTHER Gospel". They were under the ONE Gospel where being born again WAS THE ONLY way in!

"The Gospel was preached TO US just as it was TO THEM ALSO" Heb 4:1-2!

The Gospel was preached TO ABRAHAM" Gal 3:7-8.

They had NOT ONLY the New Birth (pre cross reminder of Christ to Nicodemus in John 3 shows this) BUT ALSO these powerful symbols of God's very presence. And with each one "came unnusual judgment".

God says of the wicked "you did all these things and I was silent - you thought I was like you". Ps 50.

God says that when they remained distant and clung to the idols of their rebellion - He was slow to do anything - but when "you come to the Prophet of the Lord to inquire of the Lord then I MYSELF will answer, I will judge you".

In Exodus when Israel rebelled against God - God said to Moses "I will not go on with them lest I break out into the camp and destroy them for they are rebellious" .

So yes - there is separation today - and even though we come to God in salvation and are born again and we HAVE the opportunity spent hours with Him alone in worship, prayer, meditation, digesting the Word of God -- we "Choose not to" and living in that "distant compromise" God does not simply "barge in to do some judging". He remains distant and gives us time to choose to enter the path of "Closeness" or stay "remote".

In the case of Christ and the Apostles we see "God near". But when Annanias and Saphira decide to do "a little compromising" with "God near" they are killed for BRINGING OFFERINGS to the church in the wrong manner!

The Symbol of God's presence NEAR is both good news and bad news because you can not choose compromise AND choose God without immediate visible catastropic consequences the way you can with "God distant".

If you really want visible powerful amazing answers to prayer you have to start off where you are and begin the "experiment" - asking for answers in every day life and listening when God answers - for with the answer often comes instruction.

(see the book series "Incredible Answers to Prayer" by Roger Morneau http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0828013292/104-4716982-4501500?v=glance&n=283155)

 

This is basically what I have been coming to understand. And since even Ananias and sapphira were after Christ in the Church age, this to me further points to some sort of significance in AD70, and what the passages on perseverance to avoid judgment were pointing to.
After the final destruction of the OT system of condemnation, we entered the full fruition of grace, where people are no longerjudged on the spot. God lives in us, so we are no longer like the Israelites following the cloud and being struck down at the least thing wrong. That is why this is not a 'two gospel' model.

The downside, is that with no more physical miracles, websites like that, along with all the other mockers, anti-Intelligent Design, etc seem to have a stronger case. Then we are left to respond with personal experience (what God did for/said to me, What I got from reading His Word and prayer, etc), and many add claims of miracles, either emotional/spiritual healing or moral reform, ar some go as far as claiming to continue physical healing, with all sorts of extravagant claims gracing the airwves, books, and even Church fronts. None of this impresses the skeptical world.

So this seems the best explanation for God's seeming hiddenness today.

 

God always answers prayer. He answers yes, no, maybe, or wait. Sometimes He allows things to happen so that He, through our suffering/trials, can win/draw others to Christ. Other times He allows things to strenghten us in our relationship with Him. He knows whats best for us even if it means we have to suffer a little.

 

Nothing in the NT texts written prior to 70 AD indicates "we are not yet under the system of Grace".

you can't just make it up

 

You seem to be basing everything on "feelings" which are nothing more than a finite, human emotion. God does talk to us and communicate with us. He uses His Word, the Church, our family, friends and situations. If you can't see God's hand in day to day things, you need to start looking harder. God does answerer prayer in yes, no or not now. Just because you want immediate, visible results doesn't negate the fact that God is in control.

 

My Father

You can say my experiences are coincidence but I do not believe they are - On the day before the funeral for my father, Kelly, my niece-in-law was driving, Wendy, my sister, was in the back and I was in the passenger seat. Wendy and I both watched this pure white dove fly in front of us and watched it fly away to the heavens. Kelly thinks that Wendy and I both imagined it, Wendy found it creepy but I found it peaceful and beautiful. I say what a gift from God.

A story behind the Lords Prayer: back in 1996 during the first surgery for Quadruple Bypass my Mother and a dear friend, Helen were sitting with Dad, he was so doped up and sick the only thing he could say was the Lords Prayer, while the three of them were praying a White Dove sat on the windowsill the entire time and when they finished it flew away. At one point the nurse came in and the Dove flew away, once the check up was done they began again and as they started the prayer the Dove came back on flew away once finished. How special one must be to get such a gift from God. My Father was a special man, I hope all feel that way about there fathers.

There are others but these are two of the most special - God does prove His existence, some days it is in the beauty of life that gets overlooked, other days it is a miracle.

 

That is one of the weak points of that theory, but still, it does offer an explanation of why there were miracles, or even Ananias and Sapphira incidences in the NT, but not any longer some time after that. (Unless you want to accept RCC claims:tongue3

 

As for "Yes, no, maybe, not now", While I don't deny this could be true, I do think we have gotten too much into holding this up as our "proof" of God, even calling it "miracles", and then of course, as we just saw, denying "feelings" and "understanding".
Religion has long been coming under fire for such diversionary tactics, when its leaders cannot give real answers. We were able to get away with it and keep the masses under their control in the past, but people today are fed up with it. Remember, the article said, among other things, "God never 'answers prayers' if there is no possibility of coincidence." If I understand this correctly, what he is saying is that all of the things we are calling "answers to prayer" and even "miracles" are things that can happen naturally, and in fact do happen, even to people who do not believe in God. Then, as we also saw, when someone is in pain, we just tell them "God is telling you 'no' or 'not now', and this is for your good" ("strenghten us in our relationship with Him", etc). I used to go through this, and when asking for a painful situation to be removed, it always just worked itself out, in its natural time, just as it had before I was a Christian, and for many other non-Christians no matter how long, or how much damage was being done in the meantime. Christians just coldly responded that it was good, and if damage was being done, it was because I wasn't "responding to it right" such as being thankful. When pressed enough for answers, some of these Christians even broke down and attributed it to "the way the world of sin is", and to me as a new Christian, it was very confusing. Is God doing all this; "allowing" it, or it's just life. I got all of this at different times.
A person without much power will have a lot of things not go his way, Christian or non-Christian, while a person with power will have more things go his way, Christian or non-Christian. For that is the way the world has been allowed by God to be set up in this state of sin. Yet we are taught that if it doesn't go our way, it was God who said "no" or "not now", and if it does go one's way, then it was God who said "yes". Christian leaders with their money and power looked like they were getting their prayers answered (and attributed it as rewards for all their work), while apparenly, the less powerful needed more "character development" through trials and deferred prayers. When asked about rich ungodly people, then we are given the scriptures about how the ungodly prpsper, while the godly suffer (but what about the well-off christians who you said were getting their prayers answered for their faithfulness?) when the ungodly suffer, it is judgment for their sins, or just "the emptiness of not having Jesus in their lives". Of course, some of these people attibute our national tragedies as God's judgment for our supposedly turning from our 'godly roots", ignoring all the sin in the past.

So basically God's name is plugged into every outcome to cast events in whichever way is convenient at the moment. Multimillion dollar teaching industries are thriving off of books, tapes, speaking engagements, etc. offering "the answers" to these "hard realities". Many come with extravagant claims of "miracles", and attached to the doctrine that God is inflicting pain for good, is the notion that is we "respond to it with a positive attitude, then that makes us grow", and is held up as "the power of God" by which we are "made like Christ". Problem is, non-believers can think positively and grow that way as well, so we think we're proving something to them, and what we're actually proving to them is their prior notion that Christianity is just a crutch, or "A way", rather than "THE way". (It sure enough sells, though!)
Meanwhile, this backfires, especially in my circle (semi-charismatic IAOG's), where people claim God told them in prayer things like a cancer patient will be healed as he seems to be getting better (i.e. "yes"), but then when he dies, "oh, well, God said no. We just will never understand it until Heaven, but we'll have 'faith' that God did it for good". But this presumed an outcome, and then had to change when the situation changed.

But in all of this, we have gotten away from the fact that the Holy Spirit is sufficient to cleanse us ("purging", "chastizing", "scourging", etc. is conviction, not bad circumstances). That is the "power" we have the world doesn't have. What we also have that the world doesn't have is salvation, and along with the "power of God" (the Holy Spirit) unto sanctification, and hopefully, the "peace" that comes from being out from under condemnation (This is what we "believe we have" or "claim" by "faith" even though it may not look like it)
It seems we have gotten into expecting MORE than just that, (plus trying to maintain the continuity of the NT where we still see miracles) so that's why all the claims of miracles today. Most of the scriptures on suffering were about NT Christians suffering persecution at the hands of both the Temple system and the pagans. Many of us in the West are not going though this today, so in order for those scriptures to be fulfilled ("have meaning") in our lives, we have to plug in our daily disappointments and ongoing pain as the fulfillment, but it often doesn't fit. Some teachers claim a driver cutting you off at the intersection is such a "test" from God and/or Satan! It is a commonly used illustration, in fact!

I address all of this, and the pertinent scriptures used in the teaching, here:
http://members.aol.com/etb700/abundant.html

I'm sorry again, xdisciple, that you have all these questions. It is very hard to find answers often, and you hear so many claims; whatever works best for the particular person. I have been feeling a bit burned out by some of the debates here, and people just believe what they want to, and even when you show them from the Bible, it still means this, and you're trying to deny that, etc. We just cannot decide on anything, and then here come the sects and Catholicism playing that to their advantage saying we should follow their "true Church", we wouldn't have these problems. I have to admit, we truly are a mess, and I understand why you have so many questions, even though some have gotten impatient with you. It's like we do not know what to do with ourselves, and all of us apparently have problems with faith, so we defelct questionaer's answers, or get impatient with them and just tell them "read the Bible" (when we cannot agree on what it teaches), or trump up all these claims of "miracles" and "intervention" in events that occur naturally. (And of course, some fake supernatural miracles as well). But this is not what we see in the Bible.
My prayer is that God will truny reveal Himself some way, or do something, because it really seems we are spiraling into oblivion sometimes.

 

I believe God answers all prayers period

I was raised a Christian with parents who lived what they preached, I was fortunate

My mother was not raised as an active Christian and only became active after meeting my father, for her she had the same questions as you. No shame in that. The decipeles knew and believed but they still had times where they could not heal and fell through the water standing with Christ. She still struggles from time to time due to bad experiences in life and with people who called themselves Christian stood in the church proclaiming their love of God. I heard in a song that "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

Believing that God answers prayers is Faith, another Thread of yours :flower:

I cannot give a good answer for you as I am still learning and growing, all I can do is pray you find the guidance and knowledge you need and want. As I pray for myself the same all the time

There are a lot of times I wonder if He is listening, I know he is in my heart, but my head listens to much to the world :tear:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Nothing in the NT texts written prior to 70 AD indicates "we are not yet under the system of Grace".

you can't just make it up

Define "Good" in that context.

It is like saying "The Bible does not support this at all - but it makes for a good story if you like storytelling instead".

And when we say "does not support" what we mean is -- try reading Romans AS IF that book is written at SOME OTHER time than the Gospel of Grace - the ONE Gospel!

How about "Accepting the bible instead of story telling" - because "story telling" that does not fit the Bible IS the RCC model - not the sola Scriptura model!

The BIBLE does not say that "you need to change the Gospel to explain the lack of faith and the apostacy of the Christian faith over time".

In Christ,

Bob

 

It's not true that "the Bible does not support this AT ALL" (it's always "all or nothing" with you). There are scriptural questions that remain with the theory, but then there are many more questions that remain without it.

The same thing could be said about your little theory you gave above, ("The Symbol of God's presence NEAR is both good news and bad news because you can not choose compromise AND choose God without immediate visible catastropic consequences the way you can with "God distant"), which is basically the same as what I said, but minus the AD70 reference. You didn't back that up with any scripture that says that God withdraws now because to be in His presence is "good and bad news" either. At least I gave a significant historical reason why God would withdraw after the age of the apostles.

Another scripture I did forget to give which is pertinent is "to whom much is given, much is expected".

 

The Bible does not "support at all" that which it directly contradicts. In this case the Bible explicitly CLAIMS that the saints are under Grace at the very time this "story telling" wants to insist THEY ARE NOT!

How much more obvious can that be?

The RCC can make the same case for Purgatory saying "well there are a few places where you might get by with inserting that idea into scripture" but the fact that scipture teaches in Christ an all-sufficient once-for-all sacrifice that ALONE atones for sin - creates a basic context of "direct contradiction" for that extra-Biblical idea of Purgatory. It is not just that we can not find its' explicit endorsement it is that in places we CLEARLY SEE it's explicit condemnation!

Obviously.

Actually "I was quoting scripture" when I pointed to GOD HIMSELF making that argument about "God DRAWING NEAR for judgment" and God being "FAR" resulting in long delayed judgment.

So not only is my position an ENDORSEMENT of the text of scripture but ALSO there is no scripture DIRECTLY contradicting HIS Word on that point.

Equivocating between that and the Bible-contradicting idea that "Romans is writtne OUTSIDE of the Gospel of Grace to saints NOT UNDER GRACE" is just a fallacy.

I SHOW God making that VERY Point in Exodus and I reference His making it several times in the OT THEN I SHOW the point with Adam and Eve AND with Annanias and Saphira. So while you might argue "As with the words Trinity" that I do not show the very words as stated in the end - I show all the teaching that make up that point IN scripture!

Your entire case is based NOT on what you find in the Bible but in using history as a "story telling" platform IN SPITE of the Bible contradiction to that story you are telling.

This is a PRE-CROSS statement that shows no sign of "BEING ABOLISHED" at the cross OR in 70AD.

Those who abolish God's Word at various points in history just out of "story telling" are taking a very dangerous non-sola-scriptura road!

In Christ,

Bob

 

You build your whole argument there on the premise that I said the saints were "not under grace". That is NOT what I said. I said the full fruition of grace. That is what they were looking forward to, and something was promised to come in their lifetimes. You take the examples in Exodus and Adam & Eve and Ananias & Sapphira to prove your point on God's withdrawing just like I do, so I'm not arguing against that. But the question is why were Ananias and sapphira still being struck down then, but that stopped happening afterward? That was my only point. What happened inbetween acts and now that caused God to "withdraw" compared to the quick judgment of those times?
Gee, you always have to be on accuse mode. It gets very tiring discussing anything with you.

xdisciple; I can feel for you. That is typical of the easy "pat answers" we are known for. Read my link above, that should further validate your concerns.