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Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 5, 2011.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I do not think the grammar allows the possiblity that the Calvinist view is valid. I am not removing words, I am attempting to show through sanctification and faith is tied to chose, not salvation. If you do not know how prepositional phrases drop out which showing the main idea of the sentence, there is nothing I can say.
     
    #121 Van, Mar 8, 2011
  2. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    You can't always do that to prepositional phrases. You are talking about independent clauses. This is a dependent clause. Also, "through" is a preposition as well, along with "by" and "in." So I guess we can take that out too. :rolleyes" :)

    Also, you didn't give how you would word with "proper grammar" the sentence in my view. How would you word that?

    What you need to do is determine what the propositions modify. Is it an adverbial phrase or an adjective phrase? If it is an adverbial, it would modify "choosing," but if it is an adjective, it would modify "salvation."

    I say it's an adjective phrase.

    I saw something in the corder of the room.
    Here we have to propositional phrases. The first one, "in the corner," is an adjective phrase. It modifies the noun "something." The second phrase, "of the room" modifies the noun "corner."

    Here in the passage, we have an adjective phrase.

    God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
    "from the beginning" (or "as the firstfruits") modifies "chosen"
    "for salvation" would modify the verb "chosen."
    "through sanctification" would modify the noun "salvation"
    "by the spirit" would modify "sanctification"
    "[through] faith" would modify "salvation"
    "in the truth" would modify "faith"



    In addition, how is sanctification and faith tied to choosing. It says "through" (meaning, by means of) sanctification and belief. How does that work in your view if it isn't about salvation? On what grounds do you say that this is an adverbial phrase that modifies "chosen" instead of the adjacent noun "salvation"? Also, who is being sanctified? God is the one choosing here. He has chosen through sanctification? Who is being sanctified and what does it mean? What does "belief in the truth" mean if not for salvation but election. Who is doing the believing here? What purpose is the believing if it isn't unto salvation.

    If you are going to say that it is for choosing and not salvation, you need to have a lot better support for that position.
     
    #122 jbh28, Mar 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2011
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Winman,
    you do not understand my post.or you are putting ideas in my post that are not there.[i think you do this sometime]

    1] God does not need anything from man or any other creature
    2God knows all things..re-read my post
    3] God ordains the means of salvation

    so when you say all this;
    your whole post is off.
     
    #123 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2011
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Van,
    You keep posting this false idea.No one believes this but you.Nobody.
     
    #124 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2011
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    jbh,
    It is puzzling how this happens..I was surprised to read it myself:confused:

    This is how scriptures get mis read also.
     
    #125 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2011
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Van,
    this is not how believers understand this verse or Gods election.here is how it is taught;
    [QUOTEhttp://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc10.html][/QUOTE]


     
    #126 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2011
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Wrong,and heretical.God is never subject to the creature.
     
    #127 Iconoclast, Mar 9, 2011
  8. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    You don't know what everybody else believes. I agree with the posting you say "nobody" agrees with. You don't agree because it goes against Calvinistic teachings.
     
    #128 Robert Snow, Mar 9, 2011
  9. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    What would the response from the moderators be if I declared Calvinism to be heretical? Don't be so quick to call others heretics, even though the administration seem to allow some people more latitude than other here.
     
    #129 Robert Snow, Mar 9, 2011
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Well,as I documented on 2/27/11 --you have repeatedly called Calvinism false doctrine and a false gospel. The admins have been rather lenient to allow your frequent postings saying such things. You have no room to complain Robert. You are the one who has been given a lot of latitude.
     
    #130 Rippon, Mar 9, 2011
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Mistaken doctrine is false doctrine

    I think it is ok for folks to think some other viewpoint is mistaken and therefore my logical necessity false doctrine. But simply to post it is wrong and heretical without supporting the statement biblically seems likely to derail the thread into personality.

    The topic of this thread is using the Bible to define what foreknew, foreknow and foreknowledge meant to the original authors. Based on my study, I concluded the idea was using knowledge obtained in the past for some purpose in the present, and has nothing to do with foreseeing the future.

    Since this view is inconsistent with Calvinism, the defenders of that view said I was mistaken and offered it meant having a relationship with someone before creation in the mind of God. I offered that believing in that manifest conjecture rather than what the Bible actually said was weak.

    Next I said contrary to God choosing us individually before He created us, the Bible says God chose us individually when He spiritually put us in Christ, and that view is substantiated by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
    #131 Van, Mar 9, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yea, you hit a tender spot with me.

    I can take almost any insult, even heresy, if the person who hurls it will have the backbone to back it up with their reasons.

    If they supply reasons then we can examine them and see if they are sound or just stupid.

    So, some of these guys love to drive-by post and hurl smart alek remarks and run off without having the character to back up their remarks with reasons.

    That is low class and trashy in my book.

    If you think someone is a heretic- say it- I suppose that is OK.
    But then back up your claim with your reasons so that all can scrutinize your reasons and discover if they are sound or if you are just full of bull and a jerk.
     
    #132 Luke2427, Mar 9, 2011
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Whom He foreknew

    Romans 8:29 using the term "Whom He foreknew" and Calvinist doctrine says that means the individuals God elected before the foundation of the world. On the other side of the street, I stepped out with "Whom He foreknew" refers to the corporately elected target group of His redemption plan.

    Then I said the Calvinist view could not be correct because then folks would be individually elected twice and that was not sound. I offered several verses, one mistakenly, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-28 supporting God choosing us while we were physically alive, living without mercy and not yet a people chosen by God. Some were chosen while living poor but few while living rich. Basically I believe the evidence for election for salvation during our physical life is strong. And I believe we are chosen on the basis of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
     
    #133 Van, Mar 9, 2011
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Since you are doing the very thing you accuse of, I will quote you here
     
    #134 webdog, Mar 9, 2011
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    did you see my previous post?
     
    #135 jbh28, Mar 9, 2011
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to jbh28,

    Basically there is nothing I can say, your post illustrates that you do not understand grammar the way I do.

    When you rolled eyes, because both prepositional phases (for or to salvation) and through sanctification and faith) could be dropped out, you missed what I was saying. Both are connected to "chose you" We were chosen for salvation and we were chosen through sanctification and faith.

    How would it be written if Paul's idea was the Calvinist view? Chose you for salvation AND saved you through sanctification and faith. But the grammar does not allow that reading, in my opinion.
     
    #136 Van, Mar 9, 2011
  17. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I understand grammar just fine. You are stating its an independent clause and that it modifies something other than the adjacent word. Its up to you to show that us the case, something you jane not done. If my post shows I don't understand grammar like you, then you need to do some refreshing on adjective and adverbial phrases.


    And your change isn't necessary. There is nothing gramatically that keeps the adjective phrase from modifying its adjacent word

    Now as far as doctrine goes, I don't base my theology on this verse alone. There is a preposition here and that means that the definitions can because broad and difficult to grasp without looking at other passages.
     
    #137 jbh28, Mar 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2011
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reply to jbh28

    As I said, there is nothing I can say.

    The fact that you are saying my view uses through sanctification and faith as an independent clause makes my case. I have no comment on your grasp of grammar, all I am saying is your grasp is very different from mine. Lets leave it there.
     
    #138 Van, Mar 9, 2011
  19. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    It's not a matter of grasp. Grammar is grammar. You don't make up your own rules. You have said that the phrase "through sanctification..." cannot be an adjective phrase but and adverbial phrase. Please share with us why you say that instead of it being and adjective phrase modifying the adjacent term.
    Does "by the spirit" modify chosen or sanctification? What reason do you put "by the spirit" modifying "sanctification" but not through? What about "in the truth"? What does that modify and what reason do you have.

    don't just say we look at grammar differently. There isn't room for differences here. It is what it is. Please share with us the rule you are using. Just saying we look at it differently is a cop out.


    For review...
    "from the beginning" (or "as the firstfruits") modifies "chosen"
    "for salvation" would modify the verb "chosen."
    "through sanctification" would modify the noun "salvation"
    "by the spirit" would modify "sanctification"
    "[through] faith" would modify "salvation"
    "in the truth" would modify "faith"
     
    #139 jbh28, Mar 9, 2011
  20. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Van,

    Good to meet you. I don't have much time this month to "play" :)...but I have read a few of your post. You seem to place a lot of weight in how you read 2 Thess 2:13. Really, its kinda hard to find many post where you don't bring this up. So I think its fair to say, this is your pet verse in the debate. I would like to go over it with you.

    We will get to the main subject later, but for now I want to look these words:

    "at through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
    1) what does sanctification mean?
    2) Who does the sanctifying?
    3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
    ​
    I want to offer one meaning because of time, and see if you agree.

    Would you agree with this so far?

    I understand the weight you place is on the next part, which I hope we can look at next.

    James
     
    #140 Jarthur001, Mar 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2011
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