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Featured 1 Cor. 12-14

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    This is where I stand on chapter 12...
    Corinthians Chapter 12
    Spiritual Gifts-
    He is talking to saved people.
    Does not want you to be ignorant.
    There are different gifts, administrations, operations but the same Spirit, Lord and God. The manifestation of the Spirit is given to profit withal.

    KJV Acts 2:32-33This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (The manifestation of the spirit is like electricity, you can not see Electricity but you see it manifested through the light bulb.)

    Word of wisdom
    God providing to you direction on how to apply the knowledge he gave you about something.

    Word of knowledge
    God providing to you information, insight about something.

    Faith
    Having confidence or trust that what God has revealed to you by knowledge or wisdom will come to pass at your command.

    Healings
    To heal by the power of God, according to what God has revealed to you by knowledge or wisdom.

    Miracles
    Exercising your God given spiritual ability to do miracles by the power of God according to knowledge/wisdom.

    Prophecy
    Speaking, writing communicating a message from God to people. Convinces the unlearned, secrets of his heart made manifest, reports that God is in you of a truth.

    Discerning of spirits
    God reveals to you information about the presence or non presence of spirits (Holy or demonic) whether you can cast them out and providing the power to do it.

    Tongues
    Speaking a language of men or angels that you do not understand given to you by the Lord.

    Interpretation of tongues
    Given the sum and substance in your language of what you have just spoken in tongues.


    Same Spirit giving every man severally as he will.
    Revelation gifts-knowledge, wisdom.
    Power gifts- faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning spirits.
    Worship- tongues, interpretation of tongues.
    (Rom.11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.)

    One Body, Many Members
    Christ Church has many members just like our physical body
    The same Spirit is in us all.
    We are baptized into one body.
    All our body parts are important just like members of Christ.
    God has set them in the body as it pleases Him.
    There should be no divisions in the body.
    We are members of the body of Christ.
    God has set in the church.
    First apostles.
    Second prophets
    Third teachers
    Miracles, healing, helps, governments, tongues.
    Covet the best gifts.
     
    #81 awaken, Sep 5, 2012
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Prayer is actually asking God, according to the original meaning of the English word, and the Greek word proskuneo which always means to ask. But I'll not quibble.

    What interests me more is that now you are saying sometimes tongues is talking to other people, not talking to God. So you are inconsistent. What in the Bible makes interpretation suddenly talking to people?
    Funny, I was under the impression all along that you were trying to convince me! :tongue3: (Just pulling your leg.)
    No, no, I didn't say it was our power. Let me try to explain it a little better. The "manifestation of the Spirit" is possessive in both Greek and English, meaning the manifestation belongs to the Spirit, not us. It is referring to His gifts.

    I believe with all of my heart in doing God's work in the power of the Holy Spirit, not our own power. I've preached for 42 years, began praying for the Holy Spirit to fill me in the '70s, came to a better understanding in about 1983 after long hours of prayer and searching the Bible, and pray almost every time I get in the pulpit for the fullness of the Spirit. I've seen God do some wonderful things over the years when I was filled with the Spirit. I urge you to carefully examine this view that the fullness of the Holy Spirit is for serving God.
    In the first place I don't believe "it" can manifest in the Spirit. It is the Spirit's job to manifest (give spiritual gifts), not ours. Secondly, the lost person has potential, but his spirit is dead, so he can do nothing to please God, nothing that is not sin. But he can use gifts God has given him for his own selfish and sinful purposes.

    May I ask you to do something? My grandfather was evangelist John R. Rice. He gave himself as a young man to bring back mass evangelism to America, and was used of God to bring over 200,000 to Christ. His famous tract was translated into 46 languages In the '30s, '40s and '50s he used to have cooperative evangelism meetings in which he would tell the Pentecostals, "You don't talk about tongues, and I won't talk about baptism. Instead, let's band together for the winning of souls for Christ." And they would see great results for God.

    What I would like you to do to understand what I am saying poorly is to read this pamphlet by John R. Rice: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/soul_winning_and_holy_spirit_power.htm. He also wrote a wonderful book entitled, The Power of Pentecost or The Fullness of the Spirit. You can still buy it at: http://swordbooks.com/powerofpentecost-2.aspx. I read this book about five times and was incredibly blessed and helped by it.
     
    #82 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2012
  3. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    As a ministry in the church when someone gets up to delliver a message it is to someone their. They either interpret it or someone else does. Not all are called into this ministry. But tongues (speaking to God) will edify (build up) the one speaking. This is praying in the spirit...look up every scriptures where is speaks of "praying in the spirit". Paul calls it tongues "praying in the spirit" in Chapter 14.

    Well, I wish I could...because this has been one of the most exciting parts of my walk with God! I was saved at 9 years old been in church (baptist) all my life. I am so thankful for my Baptist roots (I am still in a Baptist church), the message they taught brought me to the cross! But never taught me how to walk in the power of His resurrection. A church (baptist) was crossing over to full gospel as they call it and I have a lot of friends that went to that church. Well, in my religious mindset...I thought I was going to set them straight and show them in the scriptures that all of that was done away with. Well, as it turned out they showed me things in scripture that Baptist never showed me. So I went to God confused but in search of the truth...I was up to after 3:00 in the morning searching and praying! Then after that God brought people into my life to show me what I am sharing here. I ask Him to forgive my unbelief and accepted what I was taught...I ask Him to cleanse me of all my wrong teachings and let the Holy Spirit be my teacher. It was then that I began to live the abundant life! There is more to it than what I was taught and lived!

    He is the gift sent by God throught Jesus! It is the Holy Spirit in us that manifest out of us. It is His power, He is the only one that can manifest the 9 gifts listed.

    How have I said otherwise! God gets the glory in all! It is for serving God and others!

    Again, if a lost person does not have the Holy Spirit within him...then how can he manifest the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not an "it" He is a person! When our spirit is born again, His Spirit lives inside of us...this is the nature of God himself-love, joy, peace etc.
    It is all the Spirit! We just have to allow Him access!

    yes, I will read it! I am working today out of my house, but I will try to read today. Thank you, for being so kind! I believe we can discuss and disagree without the name calling and you have proved that! You and a few others here have treated me with that respect. You do not have agree or respect the message I share, but at least you do not shun me!
     
    #83 awaken, Sep 6, 2012
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I read most of it, going to read the rest later! Very interesting article!
    From what I read it look like they were describing a different experience than salvation, right?
     
    #84 awaken, Sep 6, 2012
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The one thing missing here: as I have said, these Charismatic doctrines did not exist anywhere in any church until the 20th century, with the possible exception of the Montanists in the 2nd century. How do you explain that? All you can say is that for 19 centuries all Christians were wrong, and now youi are right. Is that what you think?

    Down through the ages there have been wonderful Christians who were used greatly by God and lived victorious lives without all of the trappings of the Charismatic movement, tongues, "healing ministries" (usually fake), miraculous "gifts" etc.: Patrick of Ireland, Nestorius, Chrysostom the "Golden Tongued Orator," Jerome the great Bible translator and many other ancient Christians; then nearer to our time, Adoniram Judson the great pioneer Baptist to Burma, William Carey who translated the NT into 46 languages, Hudson Taylor who opened all of China to the Gospel, David Brainerd, David Livingstone who opened all of Africa to the Gospel, D. L. Moody who saw a million saved, and many others. Then there are all of those in the 20th century who were mightily used of God.

    But what Charistmatics are tacitly saying is that these great Christians were dead wrong. So you know what? I don't need any of the Charismatic doctrine to please God and serve Him and live a righteous life. (And I still don't think the Charismatics are Biblical.)
    I'm glad you are reading it. I know it will be a blessing, just as anything else you find by John R. Rice.

    Though as I have said there have been three times that tongues speakers have tried to split my church (succeeding on two occasions), I do know that there are sincere believers among them. I remember John W., a 10th degree black belt in karate who came to Japan for a martial arts seminar I was holding, who is now a Charismatic pastor. You strike me as being like John, sincere and loving the Lord and wanting to please Him. I just encourage you to never, ever try to spread Charismatic doctrine in a non-Charismatic church. It will split the church, and that doesn't please God.
     
    #85 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2012
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that is correct. Simply being filled with the Holy Spirit to win souls and otherwise serve God is a separate experience from salvation, but not the "second blessing." There may or may not be great joy and emotions, but the end result is that the one being filled will serve God with power. There is no need for tongues (however you define them), or other spiritual gifts in the filling--that is a separate issue, since there is no mention of gifts in most places where the filling occurs, even in Acts (and it occurs in the OT also).

    We haven't even discussed Eph. 5:18-21, the only place in the Bible where being filled with the Spirit is commanded, but no spiritual gifts occur with the filling--just serving God with music and submission to each other.

    For that matter, how do you explain the fact that the only place in all of the epistles where tongues are discussed is 1 Cor. 12-14, with the great exhortation that love is more important in ch. 13. The Roman church got a list of the gifts in Rom. 12 without tongues. And the Corinthian church was the worst church in the NT, even allowing incest. So the worst church in the NT was the only one to need teaching about tongues!
     
    #86 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2012
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    1 Corinthians 14:18-19
    "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)


    Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. This is a reference to the private form of tongues, because in the very next sentence Paul said, "But in the church..." Therefore, Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone else outside of church, praising God privately in the Spirit. Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues frequently because he had a high regard for the personal benefit that people can receive through the private use of tongues (recall that a few verses earlier Paul said that he would like for everyone to speak in tongues).

    Paul said that in church he would rather speak words of instruction (which people can understand), rather than an uninterpreted message in tongues (which people can't understand). In other words, it doesn't edify the church congregation when we use the private form of tongues in a public fashion (as if it's a message from God).

    Keep in mind that even if someone stands up and delivers a true message from God in tongues, this does not guarantee that an interpretation will come forth. The person who receives the interpretation might not be spiritually discerning enough to "hear" it, or he might not have been taught what to do with it. Or he might keep it to himself simply out of fear or nervousness. Every time someone delivers a message in tongues in a meeting or church service that I am attending, I always listen in my spirit for the interpretation. However, part of me is usually a little nervous that I might actually receive it!
     
    #87 awaken, Sep 6, 2012
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    1 Corinthians 14:39
    "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39)

    Paul's final word on tongues, and in fact the final word on tongues in the entire New Testament, is that speaking in tongues must not be forbidden. Christians today should be praying in tongues just as they did in the first century (following Paul's guidelines), because when it's done properly then it results in the edification of the speaker and of the church.
     
    #88 awaken, Sep 6, 2012
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    John of Japan:
    "We haven't even discussed Eph. 5:18-21, the only place in the Bible where being filled with the Spirit is commanded, but no spiritual gifts occur with the filling--just serving God with music and submission to each other.

    For that matter, how do you explain the fact that the only place in all of the epistles where tongues are discussed is 1 Cor. 12-14, with the great exhortation that love is more important in ch. 13. The Roman church got a list of the gifts in Rom. 12 without tongues. And the Corinthian church was the worst church in the NT, even allowing incest. So the worst church in the NT was the only one to need teaching about tongues!"

    awaken, please answer these points.
     
    #89 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2012
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    All of this is of no consequence whatever if you cannot prove that the tongues of 1 Cor. are the same as the tongues of Acts. I have asked you to do this several times and you refuse to do so. Why is this? Is it that you have no proof?
     
    #90 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2012
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You have never proved that modern "praying in tongues" is what is meant by Paul. Can you prove that?

    I don't forbid speaking in tongues. Anyone can speak any language they want around me: English, Japansese, Chinese, Swahili, it doesn't matter! :thumbsup:
     
    #91 John of Japan, Sep 6, 2012
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Yes, I have! Go back and read my post! Paul called it "praying in the spirit" tongue in 1 Cor.14.

    "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." What is it then? I will pray with the spirit(tongues), AND I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the undersanding also."

    He is explaining TWO different ways of praying "in the spirit" (which the verse above says that when he prays in tongues his spirit prays) AND I will pray with my understanding (this is in his own language that he understands).
    Can't get much clearer than that!

    Also...
    1 Cor. 14:4 says "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
    He did not say edifieth himself is wrong! Because if he did he would contradict Jude in vs. 20
    "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost."

    He also says in vs. 2 of chapter 14 that speaking in tongues is speaking to God not man. That describes prayer to me!

    The ones at pentecost and Cornelius house ...were "magnifying God" "Wonderful works of God" They were speaking to God!


    "Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

    "Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3

    Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

    "If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)
    vs. 17 says that you give thanks well! So he is not saying praying without understanding is wrong...just in church speak so others can understand.

    1 Corinthians 13-14 is not forbidding speaking in tongues...just in church think about edifying the church!

    One more note to consider...praying in the HOly Ghost, praying in the spirit, speaking in tongues is the same...I have shown that. But read Jude close...his warning is for the ones at the end times! Therefore speaking in tongues will be here in the last time (days)...
     
    #92 awaken, Sep 7, 2012
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No, you misunderstand. I said "modern tongues." How do you know that your tongues are the same as the ones in 1 Cor. or Acts? As I pointed out, no church in history until the 20th century believed in tongues with the possible exception of the Montanists. So you have not tradition to lean on, a position ostensibly based on the Bible that no one has held to for 2000 years, and the great majority of modern scholars and preachers opposing your interpretation. So, how do you know that the tongues you were taught by Charistmatics, "full gospel" (I hate that term) people as you put it, are the same as those in the Bible?
     
    #93 John of Japan, Sep 7, 2012
  14. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    How many times do I have to type this on this forum...you are either not reading my post or reading into it what I am not saying!

    I did not come to the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a charistmatic church! I was at home! I was searching the scriptures to try to prove chraristmatics wrong. When I come across scriptures that my church never brought up...well my search brought me to what I am sharing with you!

    How do you see the tongues different? I have shown you that they were praising God, magnifying God...praying to God..praying in the spirit! Read it again without your bias beliefs.

    Play close attention to Jude..praying in the HolyGhost is a exhortations to christians in the last days! We are in the last days!
     
    #94 awaken, Sep 7, 2012
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I think you need to pay close attention to this verse:

    Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

    I just completed a series of messages on the Book of Jude and ended up with a commentary of over 200 pages. This verse says nothing about tongues, and is in no way related to tongues. Unless we are carnal Christians we all pray in the Holy Spirit, or we ought to.
    There are other commands we need to follow:
    Be ye filled with the Holy Spirit--the command is to be continually filled and the purpose is to speak the word with boldness. It also has nothing to do with tongues.
    Quench not the Spirit--nothing to do with tongues.
    Grieve not the Spirit--nothing to do with tongues.

    And praying in the Spirit has nothing to do with tongues. One who is filled with the Holy Spirit, submitted to the Holy Spirit will be "praying in the Holy Spirit." What has that got to do with tongues? Absolutely nothing. Jude never mentioned tongues and you are wrong to read tongues into that passage.
    That is the RCC method of interpretation. It is like reading infant baptism into Acts 16:30ff. Because the gospel was preached to the jailer's household and those in his household got saved then infants got saved too. It doesn't say that. Your method of hermeneutics is the same. Reading something into Scripture that is not there. That is how false doctrine is started.
     
    #95 DHK, Sep 7, 2012
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Are you suggesting that Jesus, the Creator of the Universe, cannot do all that he desires to do? That he lacks power? Jesus himself said that the Father had given him all authority in heaven and in earth.
     
    #96 Tom Butler, Sep 7, 2012
  17. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Actually, we cannot know for sure that praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit.

    I recall a story of a man who stood up in the middle of a church service and said he had a message from God. He started speaking in tongues.

    Another man stood up and demanded that the speaker stop and sit down. He said, "I know that language he was speaking. I am fluent in that language. And I can tell you that what he was saying was the filthiest, most blasphemous thing I have ever heard."

    Even Satan can fake the sign gifts.
     
    #97 Tom Butler, Sep 7, 2012
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Well, Paul called it tongues in 1 Cor. 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful."

    "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:.."
    Praying with the spirit is tongues...praying with understanding is in your own language that you understand.....very plain!
     
    #98 awaken, Sep 7, 2012
  19. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Satan fakes a lot of stuff..so are you going to throw it all out the window!

    I am not denying the fake....but there is real manifestation of the Holy Spirit and it is still here today!
     
    #99 awaken, Sep 7, 2012
  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So you do not know the scripture about what He said about what He does He first has to see the Father doing it? I will look it up..got to go right now:wavey:
     
    #100 awaken, Sep 7, 2012
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