Revmitchell
Nope...the cals will jump on it because it is false on several levels.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - How does God explain truth?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Dec 9, 2013.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Pharaoh is referenced as one who foreshadowed Israel, in that Pharaoh was hardened in his rebellion in a similar way that Israelites where hardened in their rebellion. God accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion. He hardened Pharaoh to ensure the first passover and he hardened Israel to ensure the real Passover. Both times, the purpose was redemptive. Both times the hardening was of those who had become calloused and rebellious, not ones born in a condition unable to do otherwise.
In the case of Israel, Paul specifically teaches that those hardened still have hope of being saved as they could be 'provoke to envy' and 'saved.' (Rm 11:14) -
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Response to "BIBLICIST" formerly known as Dr. Walter
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The very fact that a lost person's heart CAN be hardened from their initial starting point - proves they do not start off totally hardened and dead.
We are also told that when a severe judgment is not visited quickly - the wicked grow bolder (are allowed to harden).
God hardens Pharaoh's heart by starting off slowly in the scope and severity of the plagues and then eventually ending with the death decree.
At which point Pharaoh gives up - but then reverts back to rebellion as soon as Israel leaves.
in Christ,
Bob -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
5 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.
Don't worry WD...I will not tell anyone I agree with you:laugh: -
Israel was rebellious despite God 'holding out his hands to them all day long' (Rm 10:21). So, for God to temporarily hide the truth of Christ's identity to accomplish the Passover is perfectly just, because that is all He is doing. They can still be saved even after being hardened...that is something Calvinists can't seem to understand. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Paul clearly taught, "...otherwise they might see, hear, understand and turn and I would heal them."
How is that possible if what you believe is true? How 'MIGHT' they understand if born totally depraved, as you suggest and more importantly, how could God heal them?
Explain how hiding the truth in parables (Mark 4; Matt 13) could prevent men from believing and being healed if what you believe is true?
You are confusing God's judicial hardening of Israel, with the natural condition of mankind and I don't think you can see it. Calvinism has blinded you into not being able to even understand my view. I could be wrong...maybe you can restate my perspective and prove me wrong, but right now it doesn't even seem you get what I'm attempting to say... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Hence, we must both agree that the fallen nature is the only possible source of hardening as the lost man does not possess a new heart. Hence, this hardening is simply the consequence of the fallen natures exposure to light (Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14).
Therefore, we are not talking about SPIRITUAL ability but NATURAL ability or the functional process of the fallen conscience to exposure to light. The conscience can recognize light but that does not mean it has ability to respond favorably to what it recognizes. Indeed, Deut. 29:4 denies that possibility as that potential comes only with the new heart just as Ezek. 36:27declares.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Skan, can you or any of those who defend your position claim the above verses are descriptive of the new regenerative nature??? I do not believe you would attempt to defend that idea.
Now, the only other state or condition possible is the unregenerated nature. Please note the explanatory verse 8 claims this is characteristics of those "in the flesh" and why they "cannot please God." Note, he did not say this is characterized of SOME or a PARTICULAR CLASS of lost men but those "in the flesh" which is used in contrast to those "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:9).
Your position is a simple denial of what Paul says the fallen nature "IS" as a STATE or CONDITION (the double "is" are STATE OF BEING verbs).
Your position requres a THIRD kind of man who is neither "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" which "IS" not being described in Romans 8:7-8. No such man exists. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
and thus, the natural man, the unregenerate, dead IN sin and trespasses (as opposed to dead TO sin), what I (and you may not necessarily agree) call the 'unelect', those whose names have never been written in God's mind and heart (his book of life, if you will) are not within the scope of human responsibility which so many in this board are demanding. -
Acts 2:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
We know from scripture that Cornelius was not saved at this point in time, and he did not have the indwelling Spirit, yet the scriptures do not call him either a "natural" or "carnal" man, but a "devout man" who feared God, prayed always, and did many truly righteous works.
We see another example of "devout men" in Acts chapter 2;
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
These Jews were not saved, neither did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet they were all in Jerusalem to worship God and celebrate the Passover. And we know that over 3000 of these men and women trusted Jesus Christ that day and received the Holy Spirit.
Another example is the disciples themselves in Matthew 26:41;
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
The disciples had not received the indwelling Holy Spirit at this point, but Jesus said in their natural spirit they were indeed willing to obey him, but their flesh was weak and caused them to fall asleep.
This shows that unregenerate man is not solely flesh, but also spirit, and that in his natural spirit he can be willing to be obedient and believe in God.
Cornelius and those thousands of unregenerate Jews on the day of Pentacost also show that natural man can attend to spiritual matters if they so choose to do.
Your theory is EASILY refuted by scripture. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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(Unless you believe in baptismal regeneration which I assume you do not.)
Acts 2:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Sounds regenerate to me.
Paul also admits that Timothy was saved prior to becoming a Christian.
And of course the saved OT saints in Heb 11 - were not NT saints - but OT pre-cross saints.
Enoch and Elijah went to heaven before that in fact and Moses appears with Christ in Matt 17.
So while I do agree with you that the lost are supposed to confess, repent and accept the gospel while lost - and then when they believe they are born again. I do not claim that these devout praying servants of God were not born-again - because they would need an actual new creation - new birth - new nature to be worshiping God and serving Him daily.
in Christ,
Bob -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have pointed out that God told Peter that Corneilius had already been made "clean" (Acts 10:15) and "accepted" by God (Acts 10:35) and that he was already a believer in the Old Testament gospel (Acts 10:43) but like Apollos was ignorant that Jesus was that Christ and of the newly commissioned and authorized administrator of the ordinances and public appointed means to serve God - the house of God.
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