Too bad there isn't an "unhelpful" button to push for you.
And did you here how silly you sound? Those who spent time learning Greek are hearing God's voice better than you. B/c God spoke the NT in Greek. You are getting his Word through a translation. Ever sat and listened to a sermon while it is translated. Boring!
And in this case, the correct doctrine is based on the Greek grammar and syntax. Anything else would be "doctrines of men".
So if you are in agreement with revwmc, hows about you contribute something with substance?
1 John 5:1 we become Sons of God after believing, Regeneration after Faith
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Apr 4, 2016.
Page 5 of 8
-
-
Tim, it seems we posted simultaneously. Great minds think alike. :D :D
-
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
a good enough job to more than satisfy God.
'Tis simply not necessary for all of the beyond-incredible
intellectual wizards here on dis forum to give their most
wonderfully-incredible take on the Greek words, phrases,
clauses, sentences, and paragraphs in Scriptures.
Butski, thanks anyway.
Something else most of you won't believe ...
Many years ago, there was a thing going on about,
"Which translation is the best?" (or some such wording).
The Lord told me to run from this, and NOT be involved.
As in:
Our Bibles are plenty good enough.
They all present the major important Truths.
(Except those written by cults, such as da JWs,
who insist that Jesus was "a" god, John 1:1.) -
Could it be that the absence of a definite article demands the indefinite article?
Or could it be that the word translated "God" (Θεος) is in the emphatic position?
After all, without a knowledge of the language God chose for the inscripturation of His word you would have no way of knowing.
Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is ignorance. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I'm back from Africa. Had a wonderful time, trained translators, got the ball rolling on one translation and my sidekick gathered data to analyze the language for an unwritten tribal translation. God is good! And I bought the hat (national soccer team) and found out it was made in China. (Who would have thunk it!)
I hope the OP does not preclude arguments from semantics, because syntax without semantics is useless, or course. So, consider the semantics of gennao. Here is the Friberg definition:
"1. be or become the father of, beget lit. Mt 1:2ff, 20; J 8:41; 9:34; Ac 7:8, 29. Fig. J 1:13; 1 Cor 4:15; Phlm 10; 1 J 2:29.—2. of women: bear Lk 1:13, 35, 57; Ac 2:8; 22:28 .—3. fig. cause, produce 2 Ti 2:23." [pg 38]
Now, please notice that almost all of the usages are "to bear, begat, or in other words. "to produce life." In the one instance (1 Tim. 2:23) where the word means "cause, produce" something else it is a figure of speech, not the normal lexical meaning. Even more importantly, the thing that is produced is in the accusative--the object of the verb. So, for gennao in 1 John 5:1 to mean that all the ones believing were made so by being regenerated, "all the ones believing" would have to be in the accusative. That phrase is nominative, meaning that it is the subject of the sentence.
Furthermore, remember that there is no noun in Greek meaning "believer." The substantival participle must fulfill that function. Therefore, once again I say that "all that believe" is simply the subject of the sentence in 1 John 5:1, not something produced by the verb. So a valid translation would be, "All who are believers that...."
Let me add a quote from David Alan Black here: "The tense of the participial construction expresses relative time rather than absolute time: the present tense usually indicates that the action of the participle occurs concurrently with that of the head verb." (Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek, p. 113). Therefore, in 1 John 5:1 the participle (believing ones) and the main verb (have been born) are happening at the same time, and the main verb did not cause the substantival participle. -
So I ask. Does that therefore mean that both, the believing and the being born, came about at the same time because of being, "of God"? Is that inclusive in the syntax and semantics? Does the Greek say that? I know no Greek. -
John is saying that the overcomer overcomes because of his position in Christ, and that he is an overcomer is proof that he is in Christ. And the faith by which he overcomes is the product of His having been generated by God.
I know that John (our John, not the bible John) disagrees with this, but I can't help to think he has overly complicated the verse due, possibly, to his distaste for the doctrine of Particular Redemption. His Grandfather, the incomparable Evangelist John R. Rice, wrote a fairly well known pamphlet entitled Hyper-Calvinism: A False Doctrine. Unfortunately, in that writing he confused Calvinism with Hyper Calvinism. He describes "Hyper Calvinism" as
Dr. Rice did touch on some of the "hyper" aspects of the error of Hyper Calvinism but then erroneously attributed them to Calvinists.
For example, he said
Buy the way, all Christians, except a few Universalists, limit the atonement. Even John R. Rice did not believe the devil and his demons would be saved. He limited the atonement to humans.
Foundations of Grace (Long Line of Godly Men) (Long Line of Godly Men Profiles): Steven J. Lawson: 9781567690774: Amazon.com.
Pillars of Grace (A Long Line of Godly Men, Volume Two): Steven J. Lawson, Greg Bailey: 9781567692112: Amazon.com.
Prior to Augustine's day the emphasis had been taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine.
Even Augustine did not formulate his Soteriology as a dissertation on doctrine, but to counter the heresy of Pelagius, who taught that man in his natural state had full ability to work out his own salvation, that Adam's fall had but little effect on the race except that it set a bad example which is perpetuated, that Christ's life is of value to men mainly by way of example, that in His death Christ was little more than the first Christian martyr, and that we are not under any special providence of God.
Well, this is turning into a marathon, so I will pack it in for this evening.
By the way, welcome back, John. Good to hear the good report from Africa. :) -
I have a request.
Can we take up the syntactical and semantic argument on the thread I created. The one started here after mine by revwmc was done by a guy who has no knowledge of Greek and been abusing the language so much that you would have had to tell him to rein it in. He has ignored completely the arguments I've been making and just keeps falling back to the same silly things he keeps saying which fly against the Greek grammar.
Plus, I'd love to have a real debate/discussion with somone knowledgable of these things. -
I guess I was asking if the phrase or the genitive, of God, of what little Greek I have been able to pick up on not make, the rest to be exactly that, of God?
In other words, if God wasn't in the genitive could you then say they were believing ones from some source other than God? Hope this makes sense.
GreekTim also. -
John from Japan in stated:
Furthermore, remember that there is no noun in Greek meaning "believer." The substantival participle must fulfill that function. Therefore, once again I say that "all that believe" is simply the subject of the sentence in 1 John 5:1, not something produced by the verb. So a valid translation would be, "All who are believers that...."
revmwc from Interlinear, "Individually those think to be true that Jesus to be Christ (Believe) out from the God making them His son indeed individually that love that God making Christ of Himself"
Seems to match doesn’t it, all who believe.
Again John of Japan, Let me add a quote from David Alan Black here: "The tense of the participial construction expresses relative time rather than absolute time: the present tense usually indicates that the action of the participle occurs concurrently with that of the head verb." (Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek, p. 113). Therefore, in 1 John 5:1 the participle (believing ones) and the main verb (have been born) are happening at the same time, and the main verb did not cause the substantival participle.
Again those who believe are born of God because of believing.
revmwc: God makes everyone who individually believes, His sons, because of their Faith in Him. The KJV says is born, others say has been born, however that perfect passive verb is not in the original language, as we see above. We see that the Greek states those who think to be true that is believe Jesus to be Christ God makes them His son.
Seems John states the same thing just in a way Greek scholars can understand it.
Now to John have I missed what you are saying and do we agree? Did I misstate your position? Now the perfect passive verb form “gegennetai” which is derived from “gennao” need the English verb form, has, is or even have been, in order to say that the one born of or from God is that way due to God making them regenerated before they believe. The same with 1 John 2:29, 1 John 4:7. These state those born of or from God produce righteousness that is their works of righteousness are performed because of being born of God, and those born of God produce Love of the brethren and the Born of ones are so because they have believed, not that they believed because they have been born of God. Which was the whole point of the OP. -
-
-
-
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You seem to want to hold onto the ERROR with a death grip.....Failure to welcome correction is not the sign of a faithful person, much less someone who is in any teaching position. -
-
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Page 5 of 8