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Featured 2 Cor. 5:18-19

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Quantrill, Oct 11, 2020.

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  1. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    (2 Cor. 5:18-19) " And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

    Note the distinctions made between 'us' and the 'world', and 'their trespasses'.

    What is the World? (Eph. 2:2) "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

    (1 John 2:15) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

    (1 John 2:16) "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

    Two questions concerning (2 Cor. 5:18-19)

    1.) How did God reconcile the world to Himself?

    2.) How could God not impute the world's trespasses to them?

    Quantrill
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    God In Christ, through Jesus' Work of Salvation for Jews and Gentiles (the world).

    Jesus was a Perfect Sacrifice, dying The Just for the unjust, through Jesus' Work of Salvation for Jews and Gentiles (the world).
     
  3. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Jesus Christ, then the church taking the Gospel to the world.

    Good question, I am stumped.

    That said, you do show that Believers and the world are different groups. This scripture also helps make that point,

    2 Corinthians 6:14-18
    14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,

    “I will dwell in them and walk among them;
    And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.
    “And do not touch what is unclean;
    And I will welcome you.
    18 “And I will be a father to you,
    And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
    Says the Lord Almighty.
     
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    Eph 2 .
    He doesn't impute them, because he dealt with them on the cross . Thats how it is now possible for everyone to come and recieve the atonement. Rom 5.11 . People are confused thinking the death of Christ saved them. This is how bad systematic theology is .
     
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    So was I, at one point, and for a very long time.

    If, as one poster stated, God does not impute the world's trespasses to them because they were dealt with at the cross...
    Then why are those trespasses then re-imputed to most of them on Judgment Day when they are judged out of the books for the works that they have done ( Revelation 20:12-13 )?

    As I see it, either God imputes their trespasses to them, or He does not...
    To decide not to do it, and then to turn around and do it makes Him a liar.

    Based on Scripture then, how does God succeed in justly judging people whose sins are deliberately not imputed to them?
    And there you have it, my friend.:)
     
    #5 Dave G, Oct 11, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  6. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I must be either tired or simple, but all I see is John 3:18.
     
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  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I think you're missing it Steven.
    One must be guilty of sin to be judged for it.

    If the trespasses ( sins ) are not imputed, one is rendered guiltless and cannot be judged, regardless of any other action.
    One cannot be held accountable for breaking the law, if the deed is not put on a person's account ( imputed ).
    No infraction, no penalty.
    That is how Law works.

    Therefore, why is the punishment still in effect?

    For example:
    Whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:15 )...
    But of their trespasses have not been imputed to them, then God will be casting guiltless people into eternal torment.

    What do you see as the problem?
    Here's what I see...

    If "world" here means every man, woman and child who ever lived and died, then they don't need the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, because their trespasses are not imputed to them.
    They now stand guiltless before a holy God and cannot be judged righteously...

    If "world" means every man, woman and child that ever lived.;)
     
    #8 Dave G, Oct 11, 2020
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  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The 'world' is The Elect, who are very often, constantly mentioned as being The Gentiles, included, also, with The Jews.

    Gill always spells these things out, where The Glory to God is seen and the alleged discrepancy resolved.

    The key is The Glory of God.

    Satan attempts to steal it, everytime the Passage gets confusing or difficult, etc.

    Once we see God's Glory, Saved souls can give up and dismiss Satan's substitute.

    2 Corinthians 5:19 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
     
  10. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    So, you agree that God in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, reconciled the world to Himself and no longer imputes their trespasses to them?

    Quantrill
     
  11. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    God alone reconciled the world to Himself through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That sacrifice involved the death and blood of Jesus Christ.

    The distinction between believers and the world doesn't imply that God did not reconcile the world to Himself. It clearly says He did and that their trespasses are not imputed to them. The distinction between the world and believers shows that the world is not the believers, it is the world.

    I believe the answer here lies in the use of 'trespasses'. 'not imputing their trespasses' (2 Cor. 5:19) The world is still guilty of sin as sin was imputed to the race of Adam. (Rom. 5:12) Trespasses speaks to the sins one is actively doing. Note that God makes that distinction in the Levitical offerings, (Lev. 4-6), where you have both the sin offering and the trespass offering.

    This still means God is doing a monumental thing in not 'imputing' the worlds trespasses to them due to the sacrifice, the death and blood of Jesus Christ. Note (Lev. 8:15) "And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar...and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it."

    This means that the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient for the whole world. If it wasn't sufficient for the whole world, then God must impute the worlds trespasses to them, as sin was already imputed to them through Adam. This of course is more proof that the doctrine of limited atonement is false, but my point here is God's reconciling.

    The world is now in a position to be saved. God reconciled the world to Himself. Because God has reconciled the world to Himself, then individuals in the world, can be saved. Thus you have Paul's admonition to "be ye reconciled to God". (2 Cor. 5:20)

    It is man that is in need of being reconciled, not God. God's view of mankind has always been one of love. "For God so loved the world" (John 3:16). Thus the famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards, 'Sinners in the hands of an angry God' is not a true picture of God. God did not move in anger towards man when He set about to reconcile the world to Himself.

    So, two points to note here. God doesn't need to be reconciled to man for He has reconciled man to Himself. The atonement is not limited.

    Quantrill
     
  12. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I agree.

    I would say 'systematic theology' is not always bad. It is very helpful if one is always willing to learn from the Bible, willing to note their mistakes when seen, willing to recognize no systematic theology is final. We are always learning.

    Quantrill
     
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Its powerful. Especially for new believers who Just want well meaning answers to questions. At the beginning, Were ripe pickings for false doctrine. Calvinsm is the persuasion, not for unbelievers, but new believers and believers of a certain type . Before they are grounded in the scriptures.
     
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    But what if I didn't have Gill to consult, and only had a Bible?:Sneaky
     
  15. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
    ( 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 ).

    Friends,
    If this were not so serious I'd be tempted to laugh, but I'm not.
    Some of the comments I'm reading seem to me to be missing the language of the passage...
    And its ramifications.

    This passage clearly tells me several things:

    1) God has ( past tense ) reconciled the believer to Himself by Jesus Christ.
    2) To wit ( to know ), God was in Christ, reconciling ( past tense ) the world ( you decided what "world" means here ), not imputing ( crediting or charging ) their trespasses to them.
    3) The word of this reconciliation was committed to the writer of this passage...
    Paul and Timothy per 2 Corinthians 1:1, via the Holy Spirit.


    Reconcile:
    " Restore friendly relations between."

    late Middle English: from Old French reconcilier or Latin reconciliare, from Latin re- ‘back’ (also expressing intensive force) + conciliare ‘bring together’.

    God reconciling the world to Himself and not imputing trespasses to them, means that He made His former enemies His friends.
    It's not about "potential", it clearly expresses a done deal, and is phrased in the past tense.
    He also took their trespasses and purposefully decided not to charge them for their crimes.
    Another "done deal".
    So if He did it for each and every man, woman and child, then all men are now God's friends and have not had their sins charged to them.

    Please explain to me how God can then charge anyone for their crimes against Him at the Judgment and cast them into the Lake of Fire.
     
    #15 Dave G, Oct 12, 2020
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  16. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I'm sure we are all affected by the doctrines we are exposed most to as new believers. It is only natural. But if we continue to faithfully study the Bible, I trust God will lead the believer.

    I don't view Calvinism as an enemy to Christianity. I lean towards Calvinism myself as opposed to Armenian. But there are things I disagree with in Calvinism also, such as limited atonement.

    The greatest teacher I was fortunate enough to sit under gave this advice. "If your position can be shaken, then it needs to be shaken."

    Quantrill
     
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  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    I realize you have me on ignore, which is your loss, as I explained how God still sees the world guilty in the sin of Adam though he does not now impute their trespasses to them in post #(11).

    Perhaps someone can point that out to you.

    Quantrill
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    This expresses and explains the subject matter of the ministration of the Gospel, especially that part of it which concerns our reconciliation with God;

    and declares the scheme, the author, the subjects, the way, and means, and consequence of it.

    The phrase, "in Christ", may be either joined with the word "God", as in our version, "God was in Christ reconciling";

    that is, he was in Christ drawing the scheme, fixing the method of reconciliation;

    his thoughts were employed about it, which were thoughts of peace;

    he called a council of peace, and entered into a covenant of peace with Christ, who was appointed and agreed to, to be the peacemaker.

    Or with the word "reconciling", thus, God "was reconciling in Christ";

    that is, by Christ; and so it denotes, as before, actual reconciliation by Christ.

    ...

    God, in pursuance of his purposes, council, and covenant, sent his Son to make peace; and laid our sins, and the chastisement of our peace upon him;

    this is the punishment of sin, whereby satisfaction was made for it, and so peace with God: or with the word "world", thus, "God was reconciling the world in Christ";

    by whom are meant, not all the individuals of mankind, for these are not all in Christ, nor all reconciled to God, multitudes dying in enmity to him, nor all interested in the blessing of non-imputation of sin;

    whereas each of these is said of the world: but the elect of God, who are chosen in Christ, whose peace Christ is, whose sins are not imputed to them, and against whom no charge of any avail can be laid;

    and particularly the people of God among the Gentiles are here designed, who are frequently called "the world" in Scripture; being the world which God loved, for whose sins Christ is the propitiation, and of the reconciling of which mention is particularly made, ( John 3:16 ) ( 1 John 2:2 ) ( Romans 11:12 Romans 11:15 ) .

    And this sense well agrees with the context, which signifies, that no man is regarded for his natural descent; it is no matter whether he is a Jew or a Gentile, provided he is but a new creature: for Gospel reconciliation, and the ministry of it, concern one as well as another.

    Moreover, this reconciliation must be considered, either as intentional, or actual, or as a publication of it in the ministry of the word;

    and taken either way it cannot be thought to extend to every individual person in the world: if it is to be understood intentionally, that God intended the reconciliation of the world to himself by Christ, and drew the scheme of it in him, his intentions cannot be frustrated; his counsel shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure;

    a scheme so wisely laid by him in his Son, cannot come to nothing, or only in part be executed; and yet this must be the case, if it was his design to reconcile every individual of mankind to himself, since a large number of them are not reconciled to him: and if the words are to be understood of an actual reconciliation of the world unto God by Christ, which sense agrees with the preceding verse, then it is out of all question, that the word "world" cannot be taken in so large a sense as to take in every man and woman in the world;

    since it is certain that there are many who are not reconciled to God, who die in their sins, whose peace is not made with him, nor are they reconciled to the way of salvation by Christ: and should it be admitted that the ministry of reconciliation is here designed, which is not an offer of reconciliation to the world, but a proclamation or declaration of peace and reconciliation made by the death of Christ;

    this is not sent to all men;

    multitudes were dead before the word of reconciliation was committed to the apostles;

    and since, there have been great numbers who have never so much as heard of it;

    and even in the times of the apostles it did not reach to everyone then living: besides, the text does not speak of what God did by the ministry of his apostles, but of what he himself had been doing in his Son, and which was antecedent, and gave rise unto and was the foundation of their ministry.

    There was a scheme of reconciliation drawn in the counsels of God before the world began, and an actual reconciliation by the death of Christ, which is published in the Gospel, which these words contain the sum and substance of: and this reconciliation, as before, is said to be "unto himself"; to his offended justice, and for the glory of his perfections, and the reconciling of them together in the affair of salvation:

    2 Corinthians 5:19 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
     
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'll answer you if you agree to be civil, Quantrill.
    My decision to put you on ignore was made because I sincerely have no wish to make a fight of things, and it appears that you do.
    I am also willing to be mistaken about this, but that was my impression based on our interactions in earlier threads.

    With all due respect,
    I'm not here to argue with you, but only to present what I see in God's word and to let the chips fall where they may.
    If you believe that we can have a discussion about the Scriptures without resorting to hard feelings and what comes as a natural result of that, then I'll gladly take you off "ignore".

    Truth be told, I would much rather be reconciled to you and have a friendly discussion than to keep you on "ignore" to avoid any misunderstandiings.:)
    See post # 15.

    To me, you still have a contradiction that must be addressed...
    How can the Lord decide to forego imputing trespasses, and then turn around and re-introduce them at the Judgement?

    If "world" in verse 19 means every single man, woman and child that ever lived ( instead of the "us" in verse 18 ), then to me, there is a massive contradiction that results in God casting people into Hell that are not only reconciled to Him, but are indeed guiltless.

    The language states that they were reconciled...not will be.
    It also stated that their sins were not imputed to them...not will not be.
    In other words, it states a done deal, not a "potential".

    Agree or disagree?
     
    #20 Dave G, Oct 12, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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