Pastor Larry,
Calvinists do not believe more about the atonement than those who believe that Jesus died for all sinners. Don't kid yourself!
When a Calvinist preaches in the back of his mind he is thinking I am preaching to many who can never be reached because Jesus did not die for all of these faces/souls that I am preaching to with reference to the Gospel.
There is a clear difference. :D
2 Peter 2:1 and Limited Atonement
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by aa0310, Feb 12, 2005.
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You really reached hard for that and you should not have. That was a plain old bad argument.
You continue to reveal that you don't know what you are talking about. Please get some teaching on this stuff. Don't keep repeating it.
Start by listening to that link. -
Do not speak in all caps. The next time, your entire post will be edited. Control your responses. -
aa0310.
You had said, It is offered to "everyone without exception", not as Calvinism has twisted it to mean, "everyone without distinction"!
Did you mean that it is to be offered to all men or that it is offered to all men? Put another way, do you believe that everyone gets the chance to hear the gospel message and so have a decision to make? If not who is to blame for these people not believing something they don't know about? How is it possible for these people to repent?
Since you say that salvation includes repentance then I would have to ask you how children are saved, if you do believe children are saved, how do they meet this condition? Are there exceptions to be made to the condition?
Atonement means reconciliation. Do you agree with this? If you do then why are men still going to Hell if Jesus paid the penalty for sin by being the sacrifice for atonement for all men reconciling all men to God?
johnp. -
Pastor Larry,
Stop bluffing!
I have a friend in Allentown, Pennsylvania who is Reformed Baptist and has told me what he believes about spreading the Gospel. He has told me that in his thoughts, he knows that when preaching or witnessing takes place, he allegedly knows, it is not the Lord's will for all sinners to hear it and to respond savingly to the Gospel.
I'm not bluffing. His phone number is [taken out]. This is how I know what a Calvinist is thinking.
A brother in Christ,
Ray
Post edited to remove phone number. What wer eyou thinking Ray??? Never post anyone's personal information.
[ February 15, 2005, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ] -
Pastor Larry,
You said,
We do not limit the atonement. The Lord has set the plan and will hold men and women responsible for His plan to bring in His elect.
His plan is found in Mark 16:15-16. Every creature does not mean insects or animals, just human beings. ' . . . every creature means we are to preach to all, because all sinner's sin debt has been paid at the Cross. [Ezekiel 33:11d; I Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; I John 2:2]
Best regards to you. -
Lets be very clear about 2 Peter 3:9
"the Lord...is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"
Now, how does the Calvinist get around this verse? Heres how. They say, that the "us" here means the elect! Read this verse again carefully. If the "us" here were indeed referring to the "elect" only, then it makes no sense at all. Why would Peter say "not willing that any should perish", if this is something that is not at all possible? This sentence would be completely pointless! Then it gets worse. To apply the "us" only to the "elect", it would be futher folly to say that God was "willing that all the elect would come to repentance"! Surely this understanding of the text is complete nonsense! The "elect", will come to repentance, because they are the "elect", and it is nonsense to say that, a) God does not desire that any of the elect perish, and b) that all the elect should come to repentance. Both of these are guaranteed for anyone belonging to the class of the "elect"!
There is no doubt, that the "us" here refers to no only the elect, but to the whole world, everyone without exception!
One further important text about the wideness of the love of the Lord, which really amplifies what John 3:16 means, "for God so loves the world". In Ezekiel 18:23, God asks this question: "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Says the Lord". The Calvinist would answer this ny saying "YES". But, read what God goes on to say in this verse: "and not that he should turn from his ways and live". And then in verse 32 says: "I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn and live" (see also chapter 33, verse 11)
I am not sure that there are many Calvinists who would agree with God on this, as they probably have more "pleasure" in the death of the wicked than God Himself! Reading some of the comments on this board will show that I am not wrong about this!
NOTE: The Hebrew word translated "pleasure" (chaphets), also has the meaning: "desire, will"
God does NOT desire or will the death, that is, the second death, of any sinner, though there are many among us who teach that God "sends people to hell", because Jesus did not die for them! -
Nothing is said about Jesus dying for those who will go to Hell. You are reading into the text. What did Jesus buy? He did not buy redemption He bought them. They belong to Him. They are His because as a purchase they belong to the purchaser. Then these false prophets are owned by the Lord.
The Despot reigns. He owns all things. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. Here in this passage we see the Despot not the Mediator. The verse, 2 Peter 2:1, is talking about ownership not redemption.
Matt 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Matt 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
Is it the same word? If it is then;
Matt 13:44 The man buys the whole field for just a little piece of it. The piece where His treasure is. But apart from that it shows that the word is used of material possessions. He owns the whole field to do with as He likes. He bought in a non-redemptive sense.
johnp. -
aa0310.
johnp. -
aa0310.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Let's start with 'but that all should come to repentance.'
Now this must be limited because as Peter speaks many millions have already died unrepentant because He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
He is patient with you... Who is God patient with? Who are the 'you'? 2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: Are the 'you'. 2PE 1:1 To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Are the 'you'. (Notice! They have received a faith.)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise... What's the promise? 2 Peter 3:4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised?
Peter is simply stating that God is withholding judgement day until all the sheep have been gathered. Don't worry about the scoffers they did the same to Noah. As soon as the last of the sheep are in they, since he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly, they, the scoffers, will follow their example. Just as soon as the sheep are in.
Now this must be limited because as Peter speaks many millions have already died unrepentant because He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. And; All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... Ps 147:19; Romans 2:12. Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
And where there is no law there can be no Christ!
That kills your argument stone dead. God did not give His laws to any other nation and seeing as those without the law perish they perish because He chose not to reveal Himself to them willingly. They who perish without the law perish because God decreed their deaths.
He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. Limited Atonement.
johnp. -
[John 1:11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
If man could obey all the law, there would be no need of a Christ! But alas man cannot obey ALL the law, SO, God gave us The Christ! -
johnp,
You said,
The dictionary definition of a despot means:
'a ruler exercising absolute power oppressively, or tyrannically.'
Even as sinners the Apostle Peter says in I Peter 2:25 that 'we were AS sheep going astray; but are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.'
Peter, the lead apostle, never used oppressive words like you Calvinists spawn on Christian congregations.
Jesus reigns! not like a human wicked despot. See where your theology is leading you to think, relative to the Christian God. No red star on your paper today. Do your homework. -
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johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]You want proof of my charge, then take a close look at your previous post. Here you call Jesus Christ a "Despot". Again, I notice that you tend to say things that seem to me whitout understanding what you say! Do you really know what a "despot" really is? Have you heard of Saddam Hussian and Robert Murgabie? These, to name two examples, are what a "despot" is, so-called "rulers" who have "tyrannical" (that is, "cruelty and injustice in the exercising of power or authority over others. Oppressive"), power over their subjects! And you can say, as a born again Christian (I assume that you are one), that the Lord Jesus, our Blessed Redeemer, is to be compared to the likes of Saddam Hussian??? This is a VERY serious charge indeed. I strongly urge you to withdraw this from the board, and seek the forgiviness from Jesus, as no doubt that you have injured Him by this remark! This is classic, unscriptual nonsense that the Calvinist will use to show their view of God! -
Pastor Larry
As one of the Moderators on this board, should you not have the right to remove such replies that that posted by Johnp, where he refers to Jesus Christ as a "Despot"? As this language is highly offensive, to both myself and no doubt the majority of those on this board! I hope this is removed, and a caution issued to anyone how dares to use such language of our Blessed Lord Jesus! -
Wes.
By the way unbelief is a sin. Did Jesus die for the sins that the angels committed?
johnp. -
Ray Berrian.
My sticky's come from my teacher not you, Peter, the lead apostle, and not Rome.
johnp. -
aa0310. :cool:
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johnp,
Some of us need to read a book, chapter and verse using the word, Despot. Are you sure you are not reading another religious, alleged, holy book? :D -
No Ray I am sure I see it somewhere in the bible.
Some of us need to read a book, chapter and verse using the word, Despot.Click to expand...
Are you sure you are not reading another religious, alleged, holy book?Click to expand...
johnp.
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