I don't write much on this board but read alot but I need help with this. I like Bible verses to back up your beliefs, so in our Bible study on Sun nights alot of times its me standing alone. Heres what was discussed tonight.We're talking about pre-trib.
1. At the rapture the Holy Spirit will be removed from earth
2. Anyone that has heard the Gospel before Rapture cannot be saved.
3. Since the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture we go back to the old testament and the only way to be saved is to become a Jew.
To let you know I disagree with all these statements.In 2 Thess 2:7 my Bible says" taken out of the way". not taken away
2 Thess 2
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jim1203, Mar 4, 2007.
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First, it would help to find a scripture passage that says that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. I haven't found one yet.
It would also be helpful to explain why the martyrs in Rev. 7 are described as believers killed during the tribulation. This passage suggests that believers went through the tribulation. It also suggests that the Holy Spirit was also present.
It would also be helpful if dispys would agree among themselves. One group says no Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation. Another says only Gentiles who have never heard the gospel can be saved during the tribulation. Still others say that the gospel preached before the rapture is not the same gospel preached during the tribulation. And still others hold that only Jews will be saved during the tribulation.
I have no expertise in this area, only questions. -
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Jim,
Bless your heart! It is a muddle to understand, isn't it? Let me preface my answers with this -- I believe that 2Thes 2 is "Paul's Olivett Discourse" to the church (like unto Jesus's in Mt 24)
skypair -
Hello jim.
There is to be one resurrection on the return of Jesus.
MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
This is in reference to the anti-christ. The spirit world's influence in the world is restrained but the day will come when they are let of the chains. The Holy Spirit will not be leaving but He will move aside. When this happens the end is very close.
Any help?
john. -
You appear to have a problem with understanding logic
and lack of information about how doctrines are developed.
When you don't know if a particular doctrine is true, you
assume it is true and see if it conflicts with other doctrines.
There are lots of denominations because (one thing only that
probably caused only about 20% of the denominatiol splits,
the big denominations splitter is geography) of variant
doctrines. So to work doctrines in the eschatological area
you have to know what your doctrines are in the other areas.
All three of these statements I've individually assumed to
be true and they do NOT cause contradictions with the Bible
on other doctrines.
Logically you can prove a proposition false if you
assume it to be true and can show it conflicts with other
true assumptions or propositions.
However, logically you cannot prove a proposition true
if you assume it to be true and show it does NOT conflit
with other true assumptions, propositions, or doctrines.
I will be glad to defend all the three propositions you posit.
Actually there are only two propositions to defend,
#3 is a combo of #1 and #2.
(I sometimes wonder about #2, it is a quality of God that
He gives some second, third, 4th, 5th, even 6th chances.
He might just give some who heard about Jesus before
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection but didn't accept it
then. But I sure wouldn't BET my eternal soul's final
results on 'He might just give'. Now is the appointed time
for salvation. -
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
I don't recall reading where only Jews were saved in the OT. I just got done reading about Rahab the prostitute. She wasn't jewish. Salvation has always been by grace through faith whether OT or NT. NT believers have the added bonus of the "Comforter" which indwells.
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There are two problems with this translation, however. First, there is a logical problem with what is implied by "arise". If the great tribulation occurs after Michael arises [arises to what? to fight?], then Michael is a pretty poor archangel, isn't he? Here he has been protecting his people all this time, but when he arises, everything goes bad? Huh?
But the Hebrew can also be translated as "stand up" or "stand still". The latter is the equivalent of "standing down". In other words, when Michael stands down, then all heck breaks loose (the great tribulation).
This makes even more sense when you realize the great tribulation is something that is focused primarily on Israel, not the whole world. Note what Jesus says:
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2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
Is that what is holding him back npetreley, it is not time yet? When that time comes Michael, the great prince who protects our people, will arise?
We must be able to work it out because Paul says 'And now you know'.
john. -
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As for Michael restraining satan, that's a non-issue. The man of sin may eventually be empowered by satan (hard to say), but he isn't satan, himself. -
Now Michael rises to our aid when he arrives. He doesn't cause it. :) Anyway, I see no problem with Michael fighting Satan.
I think the man will be possessed by Satan.
john. -
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Eh-HIC!
HIC!
Ed -
Ed -
Apostosia means in simple terms "removal of Chrsitianity". Sure sounds like a rapture to me.
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2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible of 1587):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,
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The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):
But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.
But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."
Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.
Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):
1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,
The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.
While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.
1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.
But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture. -
Ed -
Strongs
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
I would like to see from scripture how this really means "departure" or "catching away" or "removal of Christianity". Bizarre to say the least. I guess the term "apostate Church" is a good thing in dispie circles.
I also must assume that the Thessalonians never recieved their relief from tribulation and persecution as Paul had promised them.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
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