#2. For the most part in this universe the will of God is being completely thwarted.
According to most "non-cals" God did not will suffering, sin, death, calamity, hell, etc...
Yet every single day about 70,000 people die, trillions upon trillions of sins are committed, the amount of suffering is immeasurable, calamity and chaos is every where, and the fires of hell are unquenched.
So God certainly did not get his way in this universe. He built it but he never intended for things to go the way they did. God never wanted this to happen. But it is happening on a large scale.
God wills that every single person goes to heaven but almost every single person does not. SORRY GOD! You won't get your way there!
God wills that no sin ever take place. TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of sins are committed in this world every day. SORRY GOD! You didn't get what you wanted there out of your universe!
Here is the crux of it. God built this universe with one intention and he will not get it.
His building of the universe is a colossal failure.
This is the "non-cal" position.
God does not will sin but here it is!
God does not will any soul to go to hell but there they are- by the billions!
etc, etc, etc...
According to the non-cal God simply is not getting his way.
Maybe one day he will come in and fix most of this, but he is just not in charge of what's going on for these thousands of years.
I don't know who they think IS in charge- Us perhaps, maybe the devil- but somebody is bringing his will to pass for the time being and it is most certainly not God!
Of course the Bible spurns such nonsense!
Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.
Jer 32:27 “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?
Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?
Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?”
Exod 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
2 Chr 20:6 and said, “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand You.
Ps 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.
Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases.
Ps 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”
Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.
Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.
Acts 17:26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
Once you have established that the "all" and "whole world" passages almost NEVER mean every single person and then establish that God is bringing his will to pass perfectly in every single event at all times and in all places forever- then you must become a Calvinist- AKA a bible believer.
2nd fallacy of "non-cals"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 25, 2011.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Whats that saying that God has a vote for you, The Devil has a vote & he votes against you and then you cast the final vote
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Interesting contrast:
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asterisktom Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I believe God has elected all babies. So most humans go to heaven if I am right.
What I am referring to is the idea that most that develop a free will go to hell.
So what makes God so loving in this "non-cal" business in giving men that which damns the VAST majority of those who develop it to a fiery eternal hell? -
Does He revoke the election once they develop a free will? -
The fact is that this is a mystery. We can only work at understanding it. It is not clearly revealed one way or another.
If God does elect all children who he intends to take from this world as children then we can know that the majority of the human race is going to be in heaven.
Cue Spurgeon quote taken out of context... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Do I need to quote Edwards and some Arminian divines for you again?
Good luck attacking your straw men Luke. -
In case you or other readers are having trouble finding a non-Calvinistic scholar. Here is a quote from the esteemed Adam Clarke correctly representing the will and wisdom of God according to a non-Calvinistic perspective:
"The manifold wisdom of God;" that multifarious and greatly diversified wisdom of God; laying great and infinite plans, and accomplishing them by endless means, through the whole lapse of ages; making every occurrence subservient to the purposes of his infinite mercy and goodness. God's gracious design to save a lost world by Jesus Christ could not be defeated by any cunning, skill, or malice of men or devils. Whatever hindrances are thrown in the way his wisdom and power can remove; and his infinite wisdom can never want ways or means to effect its gracious designs" - ADAM CLARKE -
Let's also add a quote from Arminius himself for good measure:
"I declare that it {God's Providence} preserves, regulates, governs and directs all things and that nothing in the world happens fortuitously or by chance. Beside this, I place in subjection to Divine Providence both the free-will and even the actions of a rational creature, so that nothing can be done without the will of God, not even any of those things which are done in opposition to it; only we must observe a distinction between good actions and evil ones, by saying, that "God both wills and performs good acts," but that "He only freely permits those which are evil." Still farther than this, I very readily grant, that even all actions whatever, concerning evil, that can possibly be devised or invented, may be attributed to Divine Providence Employing solely one caution, "not to conclude from this concession that God is the cause of sin." -Jacobus Arminius
Now, what was it that "most" of us believe again, Luke? -
The real challenge will be to FIND these Arminian scholars.
I guess I could call upon Dake and Scofield if that's what you consider to be a scholar. -
The conclusion of Calvinism is that the entire human race becomes this:
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To say, "Oh God, I am but a piece you move to accomplish your holy purposes- but OH to be a piece which God places his hand upon!" ought to be enough for anyone. -
Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Calvinism ASSURES one that he is saved.
It is your doctrine or lack thereof that leads to doubt.
Calvinists believe Romans 8. -
Crabtownboy Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I am rather sure that Calvin would be horrified if someone had made your comment to him.
I guess you are implying that I am not saved as you have convinced me that much of Calvinism is incorrect. Is this right?
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