Regarding your 5th point -
Do you use Arminian or Calvinist terms in Evangelism?
Do you (in faithfulness to Calvinism) stand up and say "NOTHING you or I decide today will change the fact that God only cares about the FEW of Matt 7. We do not know if YOU are one of those FEW and we do not know if God will decide to save you TODAY - let us be quiet now and see what God has already decided to do. And remember - we have NO PART in this at all - it is ALL of God. Now quiet please".
Or do you say "TODAY may be your last day to decide. God IS calling you to repentance! He loves you and me, He died for you and me. His heart is yerning to save you AND Your children. Come now before it is too late. Do not put off the day of salvation to a more convenient time".
Which one are you faithful to in your calls?
We all know - only one of them "works".
In Christ,
Bob
5 Things This Calvinist Believes
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Hardsheller, May 22, 2003.
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You are sidestepping the point. I am asking which one you use "in real life". I would like to know if I have finally met a Calvinist that would use Calvinism in an evangelistic appeal.
In Christ,
Bob -
And if He cannot lie then He has a limited will, right?
Limited by His own holiness and His own nature.
But yet you say that God has given to man a Free Will something He Himself does not possess.
BTW, Your Bible view of God only looks at one side of salvation - Man's perspective. There is an equally persuasive side of Salvation - God's perspective. -
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A baby is not forced to breath but it isn't a choice either. It is a result of natural impulse. Repentance/faith/belief in Christ are not forced upon us but neither are they an act of independent free will. -
His young son wanted a Harley Davidson Motorcycle for Christmas, He really wanted it. But there was a problem - Henry and his wife had already bought him a Blue Bicycle.
Henry's job then became convincing his young son that he really wanted a Blue Bicycle instead of a HD Motorcycle for Christmas.
God has a gift for his elect. They don't want it. It's called Salvation. He convinces through the convicting and drawing of his Holy Spirit that they do.
You call it forcing if you want to. I don't. -
Ephes. 2:4-5 (ESV)
[4]But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—
Who makes us alive from death - it is God!
Who makes us alive from death - it is God!!
Who makes us alive from death - it is GOD!!!
Can you hear me now?
Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/ </font>[/QUOTE]It still requires the individual's approval or agreement or permission! God does not save the unwilling! Are you listening? </font>[/QUOTE]Dead means dead, how can someone who is DEAD be willing to do anything?
Enda -
Neal -
Blackaby said it himself. They had to convince their son of what he needed - a blue bicycle instead of a motorcycle. In the end, the child still had a choice of whether he wanted the bicycle or not. In your way of thinking, Dad would have had to force his child's will to saying, "Sure, dad! I'll take it." There is no convincing going on - merely a change of will.
Calvinism isn't about God convincing a man to accept Him. Calvinism is about GOd making a man's will change, so he will then accept him. There is no convincing. There is only forcing. It's more than a semantic issue. -
This issue is also seen in Acts as it speaks of the disciples "persuading" men to follow Christ. There is no need for persuasion in the Calvinistic system, either you have been effectually called or not. Why didn't Paul just walk up and say, "Jesus died on the cross for the elect if you believe this follow us????" Why, did he go the the trouble of "becoming all things to all men so that he might win just one???" Or why did the apostles and Christ use miraclous signs and wonders? This couldn't have been to persuade men of their authority if Calvinism was correct because the elect would have known because of the effectual calling.
It just doesn't add up. -
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Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> No rational, sane, human being ever gets saved that doesn't want to be saved. You don't find it in the New Testament and you don't find it history and you don't find it in today's world.Click to expand...
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Go back through the NT and the OT if you desire and make a list of all the choices people are confronted with by God.
Now remember JUST LIST THE CHOICES that are extended to PEOPLE who ARE NOT ALREADY God's People.
Your eyes will be opened when you discover that the vast majority of choices offered are to God's People not the UNBELIEVING masses. -
Originally posted by Hardsheller:
My Calvinism is about God convincing a man to accept him and I've never said otherwise. The difference between my concept of convincing and your concept of convincing is that God sets his eye on a particular person and convinces them and never fails at his convincing. [/QB]Click to expand...
The standard Calvinist position (and if someone else wishes to step in, please do) is that it is not a matter of convincing. God gives man a new will. This is the Calvinist model of regeneration. Man does not choose to have this new will; God gives it to him.
Are you saying that you would agree with your statement or the Calvinist statement? -
The standard Calvinist position (and if someone else wishes to step in, please do) is that it is not a matter of convincing. God gives man a new will. This is the Calvinist model of regeneration. Man does not choose to have this new will; God gives it to him.Click to expand...
Many of us call that convincing by the Spirit regeneration because we see it as the starting point of a new life. The man being convinced by the Spirit is a different man than the one who is not being convinced.
As I see it, this statement
Man does not choose to have this new willClick to expand...
Our will (or what we choose) is changed because what we want is changed by the convincing of the Spirit. Just like the kid and the bicycle.
BTW, are you sure you want to use the word "compel" for how you see the Spirit working? -
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
My Calvinism is about God convincing a man to accept him and I've never said otherwise. The difference between my concept of convincing and your concept of convincing is that God sets his eye on a particular person and convinces them and never fails at his convincing.Click to expand...
The standard Calvinist position (and if someone else wishes to step in, please do) is that it is not a matter of convincing. God gives man a new will. This is the Calvinist model of regeneration. Man does not choose to have this new will; God gives it to him.
Are you saying that you would agree with your statement or the Calvinist statement? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Scott E., What I am saying is simply what Calvinists have said all along. When God convinces a person that He is God and that Jesus Christ is his savior, regeneration has occurred.
As to what Calvinist Statement you have read I can only speculate and wonder.
Here's what the first Theology Textbook used at Southern Seminary said about Regeneration.
"The Change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the REGENERATION, or the new birth; for "he that loveth, is born of God." The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our investigation." J.L. Dagg, Manual of Theology, p. 278 -
JUST LIST THE CHOICES that are extended to PEOPLE who ARE NOT ALREADY God's People.Click to expand...
Neal -
Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> JUST LIST THE CHOICES that are extended to PEOPLE who ARE NOT ALREADY God's People.Click to expand...
Neal </font>[/QUOTE](John 3:18 KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Neal, Who is Jesus Speaking to? And what does he say in verse 19?
Come on Neal - Make the list and see what you discover. -
Originally posted by Hardsheller:
JUST LIST THE CHOICES that are extended to PEOPLE who ARE NOT ALREADY God's People.Click to expand...
God's people rejected Him for the most part so I'm not sure what you are refering to here Hardsheller. If we made a list of all the times God's people are called on to make a choice we will be listing a bunch of verses from the OT in regard to the Israelites, who were "HIS PEOPLE." These people, for the most part, chose not to follow Him. Therefore God was presenting a choice to people who really never became "HIS PEOPLE" because they never believed and followed Him. Your list theory just went out the door. -
Brother Bill,
The list theory is not out the door until you prove conclusively that it is patently false.
The verse you list points to the Gentiles.
The fact that God's people did not obey Him proves my point that the vast majority of choices in the Bible that are offered to God's People.
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