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50 Passage Challenge

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by T.U.L.I.P., Jul 11, 2003.

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  1. T.U.L.I.P.

    T.U.L.I.P. New Member

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    Here are the 5 points of Arminianism as expounded at the Synod of Dort:

    1. God elects or reproves on the basis of foreseen faith or unbelief.

    2. Christ died for all men and for every man although only believers are saved

    3. Man is so depraved that divine grace is necessary unto faith or any good deed.

    4. This grace may be resisted.

    5. Whether all who are truly regenerate will certainly persevere in the faith is a point which needs further investigation

    Here are the 5 counter points of "Calvinism" formulated to reprove the 5 "Arminian" points:

    T. otal Depravity-man is completely incapable of doing any spiritual good.

    U. nconditional Election-God choses who He will save based on nothing but His own decree and good pleasure.

    L. imited Atonement-Christ laid down His life for the sheep; not the goats (i.e. died only for the elect.)

    I. rresistable Grace-the grace of God will save those whom He has elected-it is in-obstructable by man's "free will"

    P. reservation of the Saints-the Elect are kept by the power of God and nothing can cause them to lose eternal life.

    I would like to challenge anyone subscribing to the first set of points mentioned(should you like a modification discuss this with me) to make a list of 50 passages of scripture, each followed by a one (1) sentence commentary supporting your position, with a brief commentary at the end and after you post your list I will post mine.

    I can't stand discussions over Calvinism that result in the Arminians running out of Bible and reverting to philosophy, emotionalism, and logic to make their often shallow points and making big deals over the very general terms "Calvinism" and "arminianism" to change the subject of discussion and make Calvinists appear to be some sort of idolaters that read The Institutes rather than the Bible so this will give us a chance to just talk Bible-no extended commentary, no deep theological scripture twisting, just plain Biblical Discussion.

    I look forward to replies.

    Thank you, TheBiblicalLiteralist (i.e. TheCalvinist)
     
    #1 T.U.L.I.P., Jul 11, 2003
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I can't either - fortunately - I don't do it.
    [​IMG]

    Were the Bible not limited to 66 books - the case for Aminianism would be almost infinite.

    But what is the "50 text" limit all about?

    Does an entire chapter count as "one"? (Ezek 18 comes to mind).

    How about half a chapter? Is that "another ONE"?(Matt 18 comes to mind)

    Or are you saying each VERSE is "ONE" (John 3:15 comes to mind) as well as about a zillion others.

    How do you want to play the game?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Oh BTW - when we are through with your 50 text game - how about your addressing the "Calvinist FUTURE" challenge?

    Recall that in the 50 point game the Arminian "distinctive" is going to be "God So Loved the World that HE GAVE... Really!".

    In the 4 and 5 point Calvinist meltdown - the future scenario "exposes" the weakness that in those views one must be "allowed" a heartless disregard for the non-elect "in the end".

    (And obviously we won't KNOW who the non-elect are until "The End" - so no need to debate how we react in the "not knowing" phase).

    5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:
    “Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. This scenario simply removes that “luxury” in order to emphasize the point it makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

    Here is a direct quote of one of our Calvinist brethren overjoyed on this very point.
    Notice the “focus” is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
    Fascinating!


    All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  4. T.U.L.I.P.

    T.U.L.I.P. New Member

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    I am defining passages as selections which represent a coherant thought. Often we like to use verses that are understood better in context and so this is your opportunity to use the context within reason. Naturally, we could just paste the whole Bible in here and call it our defense but let's be reasonable and select 50 passages that specifically deal with the points mentioned without overdoing using the context. What I'm interested in is a clear Biblical picture of what each side believes as a tool to understanding this conflict a little more.
     
    #4 T.U.L.I.P., Jul 12, 2003
  5. T.U.L.I.P.

    T.U.L.I.P. New Member

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    However, bobryan, I think you've already deviated from the purely scriptural approach that I am reccomending by appealing to emotion concerning the damnation of the reprobates. If you like, we can include Absolute predestination and Reprobation as points to be brought to scriptural light through this "debate".

    Also, to those interested in taking me up on this, let's define our terms and the specific points we will be dealing with as well as our personal definitions of these points prior to posting our lists so we can be sure that we are to the point and that we don't deviate from the subject matter at hand. Thank you and God Bless
     
    #5 T.U.L.I.P., Jul 12, 2003
  6. T.U.L.I.P.

    T.U.L.I.P. New Member

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    A few more things. First of all, this is not a game and I resent to it being referred to as such and secondly, 50 is a purely arbitrary number-should you desire to change the number to anything else(provided it is at least over 30) include that as a modification to the positions to be considered in light of Scripture. This is simply a chance for us to make a long list of the scripture supporting our doctrines and examine for ourselves who has the more scriptural postion.
     
    #6 T.U.L.I.P., Jul 12, 2003
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    OK - so when I quote Romans 5 (half the chapter) and observe that Paul makes a couple of points there - it is still just counted as "one".

    In the same way John 16:7-13 is "ONE".

    So whether the number is 31 or 51 when the list is presented what is the "metric" that we will use to determine which set of 31 or which set of 51 is "the more Biblical Bible"?

    What is your proposal?

    Will it be that almost the entire chapter makes "my point" but yours is limitted to isolated snippets or a word-rewrite saying the "translators did not select the right Word" in the text?

    I mean what is to be the objective measure?

    What are you proposing?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  8. Felix

    Felix Member

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    I am looking forward to all future posts in this thread. And what my brother said, I would like to emphasize it even more: Scripture alone please and forget about all human philosophical mambo jambo!!!!

    Something else which I think is important for all these posts: please do not answer a question with another question. If it happens, we will just assume that the person has no answer and can not find a way out...

    Fair enough

    God bless everyone

    Felix
     
    #8 Felix, Jul 12, 2003
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No I appeal to the text of scripture "God so Loved the WORLD" and call for a consistent rendering EVEN in the case of our OWN loved ones. (As far fetched as that must sound to 5 pt Calvinism).

    Actually - the "disctintive differences" of 5PT Calvinism vs 3 Point Calvinism are themselves "enough" to generate the 50 text delta.

    (Assuming the definitions are agreed upon)

    Your expected failure in the areas of limited atonement and of irresistable grace should suffice.

    Lets start with a sample definition.

    "Atoning Sacrifice" as is used in 1John 2:2.

    This is a reference to the Death of Christ on the Cross and the slain lamb of Lev 16 "day of Atonement".

    The corresponding "Limited Atonement" used to speak specifically of the "PRICE paid" at the cross and to claim that Christ did NOT pay the price for the sins of the non-elect - becomes "more precisely" "Limited Atoning Sacrifice" where it is GOD "selecting" who He will suffer and die for and who He will not suffer and die for.

    The problem "without that definition" is that EVEN the Arminian view accepts that the lost forfeit the atonement Christ offers them - by their own refusal to accept the Gospel. So by definition they do not benefit from the atoning sacrifice made for them - and do not receive atonement.

    On the other hand - the 5-pt Calvinist "distinctive" is already apparent "At the point of the sacrifice". It can be debated from the very start.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #9 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    To further the clarification --

    The 5 Arminian points are fine with me.

    Regarding the TULIP -

    T. otal Depravity-man is completely incapable of doing any spiritual good.

    My point will be that man is totally depraved apart from the John 12:32 Drawing of ALL mankind.

    U. nconditional Election-God choses who He will save based on nothing but His own decree and good pleasure.

    My point will be that God has CHOSEN to save all mankind - but no one made Him choose that AND He ALSO sovereignly CHOOSES the free will for His intelligent creation - no one made Him choose that either.

    L. imited Atonement-Christ laid down His life for the sheep; not the goats (i.e. died only for the elect.)

    That is perfect for Calvinism. It limits the scope to the suffering of Christ RATHER than lumping in the final disposition of the atonement for each person. It identifies the differences well.

    I. rresistable Grace-the grace of God will save those whom He has elected-it is in-obstructable by man's "free will"

    Perfect distinctive - ready to debate

    P. reservation of the Saints-the Elect are kept by the power of God and nothing can cause them to lose eternal life.

    Nothing can "cause" them - including their own choice (since by Calvinism they did not CHOOSE to become saved - neither can they CHOOSE to be lost) and thus a perfect distinctive ready to debate.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I do hope you have a copyright on that. This is, what, about the 665th time you have posted it? [​IMG]

    At least you do admit that Calvinists will be in Heaven. [​IMG]
     
    #11 KenH, Jul 12, 2003
  12. T.U.L.I.P.

    T.U.L.I.P. New Member

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    BobRyan, I'm sorry that we have barely begun and you are already accusing me of being a Bible corrector
    Why do we have to resort to these kinds of statements in a Biblical discussion? If you want to post your list than do it, and please simply use common sense when selecting your passages. Only choose those that concisely deal with your points and just enough context to clarify them. We're not trying to paste the whole Bible in here and we're not trying to take stuff out of context. Please use your head.
     
    #12 T.U.L.I.P., Jul 12, 2003
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You must be new here. [​IMG] Bob Ryan will take care of the whole debate. He'll tell what all sides are "really" saying and reach a conclusion that clearly shows he is right and that is DEVASTATING to his opponents. [​IMG]

    He's a hoot to read! :D
     
    #13 KenH, Jul 12, 2003
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And you are accusing "me" of calling you a "Bible corrector" - notice your opening post. Notice your last post.

    The "tone" was already set - I was simply responding with the same sense of directness.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    TULIP -

    You have not answered the question posted - what is the "basis" for the comparison of which list of Bible texts is "more Bible"?

    Or are you saying that we will post each "list" and then move on to something else?

    Or are you saying that we should also respond to each of the other-guy's list of 50?

    What is your expected format?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Also for clarity - are you 4 or 5 pt Calvinist.

    Instead of using "Perserverance" you use "preserving the Saints" as in OSAS.

    Am I to understand that you do not take the typical 5pt stand on "perserverence"?

    (Just for clarity).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    TULIP - Given the massive amount of bible material on the Arminian view - I find it hard to get 50 references down to anything less than about 10 posts. Is that acceptable?

    Would you like to have the first round to set the stage for the brevity you expect?

    My posts will include the text and my comment showing how each section supports the Arminian view - and that does get long in a 50 reference set - so I want to stay in whatever form you are "expecting".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Now wait a minute - I thought we are supposed to show how each text referenced is making the point.

    And when whole chapters or half chapters are making Arminian case after arminian case - are you saying I should not comment or just keep the comments brief?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I do hope you have a copyright on that. This is, what, about the 665th time you have posted it? [​IMG]

    At least you do admit that Calvinists will be in Heaven. [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Yes Calvinists in heaven - and I have improved it to give space for the 3-pt Calvinist view that is basically the same as the Arminian view in the case of the point emphasized there.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You must be new here. [​IMG] Bob Ryan will take care of the whole debate. He'll tell what all sides are "really" saying and reach a conclusion that clearly shows he is right and that is DEVASTATING to his opponents. [​IMG]

    He's a hoot to read! :D     </font>[/QUOTE]Shhh! Ken, you will spook the Calvinist.

    [​IMG]

    By the way (I think this one is a 4 pointer).

    [​IMG]

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003
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