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A Complaint About A Lack of Logic

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Jul 22, 2020.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    I have been reading comments in the thread about Pelaganists, whatever that is, and in the attempt to define terms and justify positions and some false doctrines like total depravity and other doctrines, Adam is very much maligned and misrepresented. For instance there are people on this forum that disagree on what changed about Adam when he sinned. The texts tells us clearly and plainly what was different about him and other parts of scripture gives additional information.

    Here is what the text says changed about him.

    1) He died
    2) His eyes were opened that he could know good and evil

    Ge 3:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Ge 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    This is all that we know that changed. It seems that Adam knew more, not less, as Calvinism teaches.

    Here is the logic. If this is the source of the problem between God and man and Jesus Christ is the fix, can we not look at what Jesus Christ our Lord did and have a good idea about everything in between.

    First of all, the death, burial, and resurrection of the second man and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, made living possible where men were dead.

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Logic: these people who God wants to give eternal life through Jesus Christ are not in the graveyard covered with dirt. They are people who are walking around, having families, and living life. However, they must be dead in some way or why would anyone want to make a live person alive if he is already alive?

    Any chance they would be dead in the same way Adam was dead in the day he sinned but before he was put in a grave 930 years later? Is the life that God wants to give as a gift different than the life Adam possessed before he died in the day he sinned? Here is what God said about Adam when he created him.

    Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Here is what we are told in Job;

    Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

    Here is the fix after the resurrection;

    John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    Adam before the fall was in the image of God (trinity) Born in Adam we are in the image of Adam (body and soul) after the fall. Born of God, we are in the image of Jesus Christ (trinity soul body Spirit) who is the image of God (Father Son Holy Ghost).

    All beings who have the Spirit are sons of God. Adam was the son of God before the fall.See Lk 3:38.He is the only man who was, until Jesus Christ was born. God gave the Spirit to him without measure and from his conception.

    This is logical as well as true. All this election stuff and total depravity and only certain people are chosen of God to be saved is giant red wheels and is confusion. It is tragic!

    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
    5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
    6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
    2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
    4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
    5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

    This is simple if you think about it.
     
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  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Right. No logical connection.

    peace to you
     
  3. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Yeah, None!

    One important thing that changed that I left out. Adam lost his home in the paradise of God where the Tree of Life is. But, I read the last chapter and that too has been restored.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that the reason for the additions is, at it's core, that Christians are dissatisfied with Scripture because it does not answer the questions they ask, it answers them insufficiently to their demands, or it does not support their presupposed theologies.

    The ONLY thing that we know changed in Adam is that his eyes were opened and he became like God in knowing good and evil. That's it. Because of this sin entered the world and because of sin, death. Adam was removed from the Garden (but this is not a change in Adam, but a change in the relationship between Adam and God).
     
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  5. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    So I found this error, right off the bat, I'd like to challenge you with. It's not true that Adam could only know good and evil after eating. Before the Fall, he had moral awareness and intelligence, and was able to understand God's command not to eat. He also was able to understand the consequence of disobedience. Adam was not deceived like Eve (1Tim. 2:14).

    What Adam gained when he ate was an innate awareness of good and evil. The moment he ate, for instance, he became aware of a sin not yet revealed to him by God. Thus, God's rhetorical question, "Who told you...?" That's the point. No one needed to tell him anymore. Had he not eaten, Adam would have continued to be taught laws by God directly.

    I don't know if this helps, but this might be at the root of the confusion.

    The other thing you were stumbling on is spiritual death, which is a theological term meaning separation from communion with God. We obviously don't walk and talk with God anymore as Adam did. Christ has brought us back to life (union) with God again, fulfilled at our glorification. Keep in mind also, we have to be translated for this to happen, either by death/resurrection or rapture (1 Cor. 15:51-53). And if we have to be transformed in order to be reunited fully, it follows that there must have been a change with our forefather, Adam, at the fall.

    Needing spiritual life in Christ, obviously implies a spiritual death occurred in the past.

    This is very important stuff. I can see why the Church has considered Pelagianism a serious error.

    Might I suggest also, a more descriptive title? I think this is an important topic (just a thought).
     
    #5 Calminian, Jul 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Peace to you
     
  7. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Yikes. No that's not all we know. Adam brought sin and death into the world, including his own.

    We also know, that Christ brings spiritual life to the spiritually dead.

    Understanding the Fall is crucial to the Gospel, which is why Pelagius was called out.

    Rom. 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,a how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ,b overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in lifeb through the one man, Jesus Christ!

    Rom. 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.​
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes.... Sorry, I thought I mentioned death entering the world. I do not see this as a "change" in Adam but as death entering the world of man. Because of sin man dies. So he died because of sin.
     
  9. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    What do you think Paul was saying when he said, because of one man?

    Rom. 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.​

    And you don't think going from immortal to mortal is a significant change in Adam?
     
    #9 Calminian, Jul 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I notice that you didn't address Romans 5 in your post. That seems a rather egregious omission.
     
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that you missed my comment. I said that because of Adam sin and death entered the world. I meant Adam as one man, not mankind. Adam was, IMHO, a historical person. When Adam sinned death entered the world (because of Adam's sin death entered the world).

    I do not think that going from immortal to mortal is a significant change because the former would negate the latter (and the latter the former). If one is immortal then one cannot die. That is what it means to be immortal (living forever, never dying or decaying).

    Adam's death is proof that Adam was never immortal. Were he immortal he could have cursed God and lived.

    So I am not exactly sure what you mean here. I do not buy all the "hypothetical arguments" (God could not have created a round square, Adam would have lived forever had he not sinned, if God did not promise never to flood the earth there would be no rainbow, ect).

    I have enough to study with what Scripture actually says to worry about what it does not say. I have to use the brain cells I have left sparingly...can't afford to waste them. :(
     
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  12. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I'm trying to think of something conceivably more significant. :Unsure

    Huh??

    Gen. 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”​

    Adam's punishment for disobedience was death. By what hermeneutical principal are you denying this? What hypothetically would have needed to be said, for you to accept it?

    If you've come to the conclusion that Adam would have suffered the same fate had he not sinned, then, I don't think anything else in Scripture is going to make sense. The foundation has been taken away.
     
    #12 Calminian, Jul 22, 2020
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    God told Adam that on the day he ate of it he would surely die. To me it sounds like you are rewording God's words to say "you will surely die on the day you eat of the fruit" (a little twist with major significance).

    I believe the original text (that on the day Adam eats of the fruit he will surely die, that is on that day death would be a certainty). Part of the reason I believe this is it actually says "die die" and in all other instances (that I know of) such is taken to mean a definite.
     
  14. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Gosh in some ways I'm tempted to call some of these views hyper-pelagian.
     
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  15. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    In this passage, a Hebrew idiom is used to denote certainty, rather than immediacy. Dying you will die, is a wooden literal translation. It basically means, the day Adam ate, his death became a certainty.

    GENESIS 2:17—“YOU SHALL SURELY DIE”
    Terry Mortenson - AiG

    Also,

    Why did Adam not Die Immediately?
    Alden Bass (Apologetics Press)
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree.
     
  17. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    You're not even agreeing with yourself. You said Adam would have died anyway.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No I didn't.

    I said that God told Adam on the day he ate of the fruit death would be a certainty.

    And I said Adam was obviously not immortal because he died.

    That is all I have said.
     
  19. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    No you said, "Adam's death is proof that Adam was never immortal."
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. This is obvious. Immortal people do not die (hence the term "immortal".... meaning.... well... that one never dies).

    Adam died. Adam was not immortal. We "put on immortality" (1 Cor 15).

    But if you have a verse stating Adam was immortal (never died) then by all means post it.
     
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