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Featured A Curious Omission

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Jun 2, 2021.

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  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    "There is no concrete and inescapable reference, in any of the New Testament books, to the destruction of Jerusalem, and is this in itself not a pretty surprising fact? Would we not expect one of these writers, particularly those of a triumphalist turn of mind, to make it clear that the very core and centre of Jewish worship had been obliterated?" - A.N. Wilson, on the reason for a pre-AD 70 dating of Revelation

    Along these lines, It would be criminal to pretend the holocaust didn't happen (in Germany this is literally the case, treated as a crime). Likewise for inspired writers to neglect writing of such a spiritually significant judgment which happened in AD 70 would be unthinkable.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...you're preachin to the choir...
     
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  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Lol, yeh. But it is funny that I myself never thought of that in all those years that I believed in post 70 dates for the writings of John and also, if I remember right, the synoptics. I wish I would have come across this sooner.
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Same here! Never really meditated on the implications of such an omission 'back then'. And it's a huge omission.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    A proper understanding of eschatology is not dependent on an unprovable (one way or the other) dating of Revelation, and certainly not on the writings of A.N. Wilson. A. N. Wilson - Wikipedia
     
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  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Oh come now. We can surely chew the meat and spit out the bones. What I wrote was an appeal to common sense.
     
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  7. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    I had been totally unaware of the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple until about 2007. I learned of it when I was researching something, and chanced on the American Vision website. This got my attention, as it put the "End Times" passages into a new light. Ken Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell" cinched it for me, with the strong evidence that all the books of the New Testament - including Revelation - were written before AD 70. To the point of this discussion, the absence of Jerusalem's destruction is very telling.
     
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  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    For many years I just thought of it as a relatively unimportant event. This was a reflection of the teaching and preaching we heard. An eye opener for me was a book I bought in the bargain bin at K Mart, Last Days Madness.
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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  10. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    And .... off the rails we go.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    To those living around Jerusalem, including the Jewish Christians (who according to Eusebius and others, escaped the disaster by fleeing to Pella), it would have been a cataclysmic event.. To the Gentile Christians living some hundreds of miles away, and never having been anywhere near the place, I'm not so certain. They would have been much more concerned about the civil wars and the 'Year of the Four Emperors' that took place in 68 and 69.
    Most of the commentators that I have read place Revelation in the reign of the Emperor Domitian, as he appears to have been the first one who banished, rather than killed, Christians - hence John is banished to Patmos. But I know that good men differ on this point and we shall probably not know the answer until we get to heaven and ask John. I simply don't have a horse in that race. My point was that Amillennialism stands whether John wrote Revelation in 65 or 95 AD.

    Amillennialism gives eschatology an abiding relevance for all Christians at all times. A Futurism that pushes almost all the events into the future would have been no help to the struggling Christians in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries. A Preterism that places the culmination of history in AD 70 has precious little to say to anyone after that date. Hyper-preterism, that denies a future return of Christ is simply outside Christian orthodoxy, and is instantly refuted by Acts 1:11.
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Why?
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Why did the Apostle John stop writing to the Church for the last 30-40 years of his life?
    Shouldn't he have written SOMETHING mentioning that Revelation had been fulfilled?
    Shouldn't he have mentioned it to someone that would have thought to write about something that important?

    On the other hand, if the destruction of the temple is included in the symbolism of revelation, then many of the events could still be post 70 AD prophecies.

    An early date for Revelation creates as many problems as it solves.

    (2 cents worth of thoughts)
     
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  14. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    The Christians in Jerusalem and elsewhere were raptured. This includes the Christians who had escaped to Pella in 62-64.

    To the Christians throughout the empire the fall of Jerusalem still had great significance because it gave them relief from their persecutors, the Jews. No longer enjoying the protection of Rome throughout the Empire, the Jews in the various countries and client-states suddenly found themselves on the defensive. Wherever we find Christians throughout the Empire there had also been Jews, often with well-established synagogues. We have testimony in Acts, Romans, Thessalonians, etc. of the animosity and violence the Jews had toward the Christians.

    But, ultimately, the relief for the Christians, just as Paul promised the Thessalonians, was their being raptured away. And later, when Christians again began populating the land, the relief was that their main persecutors, the Jews, were no longer in a position to harm them.

    Most of the commentators of the last two centuries do place it, incorrectly, in the reign of Domitian. But they get their information from only one ancient source, Irenaeas. He was the one who made the "stupid" mistake of not knowing that "Domitianus" was also the name of Nero. (The "stupid" came from Robert Young of Concordance fame.)

    The supposed refutation in Acts 1:11 is only to those readers who confuse an adverbial phrase with adjectival. See the archives for that discussion.

    Preterism has precious little to say to you because you do not look at it objectively. Preterism has precious much to say to Christians today. It gives emphasis on a reigning King now. It also honors Christ by taking Him at His word when He said He would return in the very generation of those to whom He was speaking.

    Amillennialism, along with many other isms, has to tweak and stretch countless passages so that they can hold onto their fantastical fictions. It has to maintain with a straight face that "the last hour" is now lasting nigh onto 2000 years, centuries longer than the whole Jewish economy.

    Denying a future return of Christ is no more a heresy than, say, denying a future Virgin who will conceive, Isa. 7:14. Both that prophecy and the return of Christ passages are spoken of as future from the time written. They are not eternally future.

    Preterism only seems heretical because most Christians are "carefully taught" by creeds and traditions that, in many cases, "make the Word of God of no effect".
     
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  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    He stopped writing because he was no longer on Earth. He was martyred in the 60s. And all of the other Christians who were still alive in AD 70 were raptured.

    The early date solves problems, not creates. Why would you say that it creates problems.

    Thank you for your response.
     
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  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    1. Then he did not die in AD 100 and the ECF claims to being students of John become ECF lies.
      • Polycarp was born in AD 69, so John never appointed him Bishop
      • Ignatius of Antioch died between AD 108-140 making it unlikely that he was a student of John.
    2. If all Christians alive in AD 70 were raptured, who spread the faith in AD 71?

     
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  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    No need to go that far. Mistakes are not lies. Also, we have to distinguish between true history and the hopeful legend that various churches embraced for their own agendas.

    In order for new Christians to come about it does not require personal witness. The written Word would be enough. And there were many manuscripts around.

    I was saved in a village in Germany in 1975 by reading a printed prayer in the back of a Christian book that really convicted me. At the time I did not know a single Christian.
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair New Member

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    "There is no concrete and inescapable reference, in any of the New Testament books, to the destruction of Jerusalem,
    Likewise for inspired writers to neglect writing of such a spiritually significant judgment which happened in AD 70 would be unthinkable.



    I am surprised that you would say that when you consider that all but 5 books were written prior to 70AD. The only writer after 70AD was John and we know that his main focus was on the deity of Jesus.

     
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  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Oh well Tom... Nothing more irritating then a choir out of tune... Brother Glen:Rolleyes
     
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  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    First of all, the words you quoted were not mine. I was quoting someone else. But I do agree with his observation.

    Also, what is your rationale for such a late date for the writings of John? Certainly the deity of Jesus was a main focus but those five books have plenty of other matter, including historical references. So the point of the author of that quote stands: Why no mention of the desolation event if it was already in the past?

    The answer is that those books were not in the past. This is shown both by internal evidence and by the fact that the inspired Canon also came to an end at the same time as the Parousia.
     
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