A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

[trailblazer]

This topic is really a continuation of the "reign of amillennialism" thread. I thought it ended on page 20 with many unanswered questions that still needed to be addressed so I am hoping they do here.

The focus on the other thread was on Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 but with the aspect of the last day connected to the view that there can be no rapture before the Great Tribulation and be supported through scripture.

I would like to start first with Matthew 24.

A- Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 prove the millennium doctrine to be sound in teaching that the elect/church go through the Great Tribulation.

B- Luke 17 upholds the doctrine that with Christ Second Coming, the separation of the just and the unjust, the punishment of the ungodly and the rapture of the elect/church occur on “the very same day” and with no 1,000 year earthly millennial reign of Christ!

A- Matthew 24. Matthew 24:21 says;

”For then there will be “great tribulation,” such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.” 22-And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of ”the elect’ those days will be shortened…. 29-Immediately “after the tribulation of those days”….30- then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn”, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory 31- and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather “his elect” from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

From this several things are noteworthy. First is that the elect go through the Great Tribulation – verses 21-22. (Rev. 7 will support this also)
”There will be Great Tribulation, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” The elect are on earth for that Great Tribulation, otherwise there is no need to shorten the period.

Secondly, it is only “after” the tribulation of those days that the elect on earth have now gone through that the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven. But then notice something in verse 30. It says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” Can it be said the elect are going to be “mourning the sight of Christ coming? I should hope not! Therefore, this can only mean that the unsaved suddenly know their fate and it is they that “mourn.” But what about the “elect” if they are supposed to be on earth at that time, you might ask? Well, by the same token, “they” will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory!” They has to refer to the elect out of all the tribes of the earth because God has never revealed himself in all His glory to the unsaved at any time in history – only in judgment does he reveal himself to them. But the point is that when Christ suddenly appears, the just and the just are on earth together and the Great Tribulation has passed.

Now, we have the Great Tribulation that has passed with the elect having gone through it, the just and the unjust are on earth when the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven and then the gathering of the elect that are still on earth takes place and the close of the age occurs immediately after. (verse 29) The answer to the disciples of what the sign of his coming and of the close of the age of verse 3 is answered.

 

[mioque]

"A-millennialism still reigns supreme"
"
Well it has been the majority position within christianity at least since the days of Augustinus of Hippo. so it's not that surprising.

 

[trailblazer]

Now, what about "the white robed great tribulation saints?"

Next is Rev. 7:9-17 but only to the references of “the white robed saints.”

“After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes,….Then one of the elders addressed me saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?”…And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God…”

Now, who has“clean white robes?” All those who came out of the “great tribulation.” But let’s go further and look at the last reference to those saints wearing white robes.

”Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done…Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.” (Rev 22:12-14)

In order to be entitled to wear those white robes, we must be prepared to go through any tribulation – whether that is Great or small. Gill has this to say about those who come out of the Great Tribulation. I can’t say it better than this.

“…and he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation: seeing this company designs all the elect of God, that ever were, are, or shall be in the world; "the great tribulation", out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be; as all the afflictions of the saints under the Old Testament; from righteous Abel to Zechariah; and all the troubles of the people of God in the times of the Maccabees, Heb 11:35; all the persecutions of the Christians by the Jews, at the first publication of the Gospel; and the persecutions under the Roman emperors, both Pagan and Arian; and the cruelties and barbarities of the Romish antichrist, during the whole time of the apostasy; and particularly the last struggle of the beast, which will be the hour of temptation, that will come upon all the world; and in general all the afflictions, reproaches, persecutions, and many tribulations of all the saints, and every member of Christ in this world, who in the new Jerusalem church state will be come out of them; which supposes them to have been in them, and yet were not overwhelmed by them, and lost in them; but, by divine support and assistance, waded through them, and were now quite clear of them, and never more to be annoyed with them; see Rev_21:4” (Gill)

Next is Luke 17

 

[Grasshopper]

But as far as “ not caring what anybody else, like Gill or M. Henry says or thinks, I think it is wise to take under serious consideration what the prevailing thought by the most well respected scholars was prior to the new thought that entered the end times church by John Nelson Darby.

Would not both these men say Matt 24 speaks to the events of AD70?

Doesn't "tribes of the earth" refer to the 12 tribes of the Old Covenant, not global population?

What "age" were the disciples asking about? The one they were living in or a future age to them? Would it not make sense they were asking about the end of the Old Covenant Age and rightly understood it to be associated with the destruction of the Temple?

 

[trailblazer]

Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return. Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17.

Luke 17..."AS it was in the days of Noah, SO will it be “IN”the DAY(S) of the Son of Man.”

“They ate, they drank...UNTIL “THE” DAY when Noah entered the ark...AND THE FLOOD CAME AND DESTROYED THEM ALL.(same event!)

"LIKEWISE, “AS” IN the days of Lot - they ate, they drank...BUT “ON” “THE” DAY when Lot went out from Sodom, FIRE AND SULPHUR RAINED FROM HEAVEN AND DESTROYED THEM ALL – “SO” WILL IT BE “ON” “THE DAY”same event too?) when the Son of man is revealed.

"ON” “THAT” DAY let him who is on the housetop...not come down and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back. IN THAT NIGHT THERE WILL BE TWO IN ONE BED; one will be taken AND THE OTHER LEFT.(same event here too? Can't have a thousand years apart when there will be two in ONE bed! Although the resurrection is not the main subject here, you can't have a separation of all the just and the unjust if there wasn't a resurrection!)

"There will be TWO women grinding TOGETHER; ONE WILL BE TAKEN and THE OTHER LEFT."(the resurrection of the saved and the unsaved – OCCURS AT THE SAME TIME - no 1,000 years apart here either! One goes one way and the other goes the other way at the same time!).

Now, count them! How many times does Christ prophecy that THE BOTH EVENT WILL OCCUR ON THE SAME DAY???

1 time + 1 time + 1 time = 3 times!

Now, when Christ repeated anything "3" times it has ALWAYS to be taken VERY seriously and VERY LITERALLY!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
should rest yet for a little season, vntill
their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

These are parallel passages.
Both show a scene early in the tribulation day.
It shows those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
at the dawn of the tribultaion day. They are talking
to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
Israeli elect saints who are suffering under the
antichrist on earth. In both cases, Jesus says
they should wait.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Trailblazer: "Christ taught us what doctrine to hold concering his return. Pre-Mil Rapture is unscriptural when compared to Christ's own literal, contextual, hermeneutical and escatological words in Luke 17."

Unfortunately bolding certain words which are not
bolded in the scripture doesn't really help explain them
to me.

Please, if you have any love of Christ or the bretheren
please put a complete citation on your scripures.
Chances are i have the save chapter, verse, and version
that you have - but God has shown me i must check letter
for letter all scripture references. If you have
any love of Christ or the each scripure. Thank you for
your respecting my request.

Considering this post (notice the bolding has disappeared):

Luke 17..."AS it was in the days of Noah,
SO will it be “IN”the DAY(S) of the Son of Man.”/quote]

What do you think is the meaing of "as"?
The "as" makes what would be a metaphor into
a simile. Both the metaphor and simile are
figures of speach (the metaphor is implicit, the
simile is explicit) for comparing things. They both,
to be understood, must explain the nature of
the comparision. This verse does explain the
comparison. The Day of the Son of Man will be
like the days of Noah in that THINGS ARE NORMAL
UNTIL DESTRUCTIm ON COMES.

Now, does this refer to the rapture coming of Jesus
or the coming of Jesus in which He destroys the
antichrist and sets up a physical 1,000 year long
Kingdom on a physcial earth ruling on a
physical throne of David in a physical Jersualem?
Before the coming of Jesus in power and glory to
destroy the antichrist, the world is in the
worse period of Tribulation EVER ON EARTH.
This is NOT NORMAL. Before the pretribulation coming
of Jesus to get His own in the rapture/resurrection
everything will be normal. This verse is about
the pretribulation rapture.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Building doctrinal support by appealing to a simile like a house built on sand.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Good similie, Brother Dr. Bob. I betcha you
meant that like a house, a doctrinal support should
be build of bricks so it won't easily burn down.

Yep, them similies are limited usually to one
and only one comparison and making other comparisons
is foolish. Unfortunately, you can preach for
years without knowing what a similie is like.

 

[trailblazer]

Because Jesus is talking to his 12 disciples, he is speaking to and giving instructions to Christians of all ages.

THE OLIVET DISCOURSE

The disciples ask Jesus three questions; 1) When will the destruction of the temple will occur; 2) what the sign of his “Coming” would be; 3) and the sign of the end of the world in 24:3. He ignores the “when” and elaborates on the rest of their concerns.

Mat 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. (RSV)”

It is not a “good” thing that modern day Christians are not willing to suffer tribulation for the privilege of being a Christian – including the majority of pastors in the pulpit.

Mat 24:20 “But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the Sabbath day;”

Now “who” is Jesus telling to “Pray” concerning the “great tribulation” of the next verse? Those who would be the first Christians but also for Christians that would be enduring the “Great Tribulation” at the end of the world.

“Your flight”….meaning ALL Christians flight – the Jews of 70 a.d. and any all Christians of all time. Because “we” are being told to “pray” we must be present for it. Jesus doesn’t listen to the prayers of unbelievers until it is a prayer of repentance so, therefore, he is telling “all Christians in all ages” to pray.

Mat 24:21 “…for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.”

“For”….( i.e.) Because of this “great tribulation in the immediate futures (literally) and far future (metaphorically) pray that either one of those flights be not in winter or on the Sabbath is what the context of 20 & 21 is saying. (The remainder of the verses below supports this conclusion that Christians of all time suffer tribulation – even the “great tribulation.”

Mat 24:22 “And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.”

“no flesh would be saved”… No human being would experience salvation! The word “saved” can either be speaking of “saved from anything in general” or of “soul salvation.” Here, because the term “the elect’s sake” immediately follows the context, it can only mean mans “salvation” of the soul as only the “elect” are ever saved.

Mat 24:23 “Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ! Or, There! Do not believe it.”

“Then”…We’re still on earth at this point because He warns us (i.e “to you”) of what we will see that will cause many Christians to doubt what they are seeing.

“Do not believe…” Again, it is Christians the he warns, so they are still on earth. But, don’t believe what? The false Christ! Non-Christians don’t believe in the Christ! He NEVER warns unbelievers of false Christ because they never believed in the real one to begin with! Therefore, the believers are on earth otherwise they would not need to be warned of false Christ’s.

Mat 24:29 “And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

Now, up to this point there has been NO indication of a “rapture” and yet, Jesus says that what is coming “immediately after the tribulation” of what we can expect to see or endure will next, be “how” the end of the world will occur. Jesus told us that we were not to know “when” the end would occur, but he did provide abundant information of what the “days” or conditions of the times were so that we would recognize them.

The commentator, Matthew Henry has this to say about the word Immediately….

“…it is said to be immediately after the tribulation of those days; but as to that, (1.) It is usual in the prophetical style to speak of things great and certain as near and just at hand, only to express the greatness and certainty of them. …The tribulation of those days includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through; not only its share in the calamities of the nations, but the tribulations peculiar to itself; while the nations are torn with wars, and the church with schisms, delusions, and persecutions, we cannot say that the tribulation of those days is over; the whole state of the church on earth is militant, we must count upon that; but when the church's tribulation is over, her warfare accomplished, and what is behind of the sufferings of Christ filled up, then look for the end.”

Mat 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

“And then the “sign” of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then ALL the tribes of the earth shall mourn…” Notice that there are “two” groups on earth comprising “all the tribes of the earth.” One group, the unsaved only get to “see” the “sign” of the Son of Man – and only in “the heavens”. Only they mourn at that sign. Why? They suddenly know their fate.

“…and they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.” Now, notice the difference here. The “they” out of “all” the tribes of the earth “see” Son of Man coming. God has never revealed Himself in all His glory to the unsaved at anytime, to my knowledge. Also, what the elect “see” is different. We see him “in the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory!” We aren’t mourning at his coming – we are standing in awe of his magnificent power and glory!!

But, the main point is this – both the unbelievers and the believers that have gone through the great tribulation are both on earth together observing what is happening in the “heavens” yet seeing it through different eyes. Which group do you want to be in?

Mat 24:31 “And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Now that the Son of Man has revealed Himself to both the just and the unjust that are still on earth at this point, separation, judgment and gathering begins!

The gathering of “the elect” who see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory - out of “all the tribes of the earth”

Christ couldn’t be “gathering His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” if they were in heaven already gathered!

More importantly, this language is global, whereas the destruction of Jerusalem was local. Therefore, it CANNOT be only referring to that period of time and that particular area![/QUOTE]Mar 13:23 “But take heed; behold, I have told you all things beforehand.

AT NO POINT IN MATTHEW 24 IS THERE ANY INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION OF 70 A.D. OR WILL BE RAPTURED OUT AT THE END OF THE WORLD! TO DISCECT AND INSERT THAT TRUMPTED-UP DOCTRINE IS THE EPITOMY OF SCRIPTURE TWISTING!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

TrailBlazer,

Well saying! Amen.

See, Trailblazer read, study, intepretiing of Matthew chapter 24 with fear and follow what Jesus Chrust saying. He have no guesswork, or making up of his idea what Christ saying.

Also, Christ said, 'you', 'ye' find about 19 times in Matthew chapter 24. Christ does not use word, 'Jews' or, 'Israel'. Whome, Christ was preaching to? His 12 followers. Aren't we his followers?

Also, the signs are happening within in our present age. The signs are not done yet, because Christ is not yet present on earth, He is still up in the heaven sitting on the right hand of God the Father. We must see the signs come to past - Matt. 24:32-33; and Luke 21:28, include cosmic disturbnace THEN we shall look up of our heads for our body to be redemption(rapture) for Christ's coming.

Obivously, we must go through tribulaitons first.

None find anywhere in Matthew chapter 24 saying that we shall be rapture BEFORE tribulation.

Didn't you know Latin word in Matthew 24:29 says 'Immediately post(-Latin word) the tribulations of these days, ....'

In the whole context of Matthew chapter 24, Christ speaks of the only ONE future coming at the end of the world. You cannot see find any hint in this chapter that there are 'other coming' such as split coming.

Pretrib doing their own guesswork by their intepreting on Matthew chapter 24, because they dislike what Christ saying that we all shall be gathering AFTER tribulation is truth.

To all pretribbers: You have to accept the truth what Jesus Christ saying, obey His word. Do not be afriad of any kinds of persecutions, persecutions. Christ tells that we should be cheerful, because Christ already overcome them - John 16:33.

Early Church understood Matthew 24, that they must go through tribulaitons first before Christ comes. Their belief was not being named, "posttribulaiton", it was not necesscary for them to named of their postion. Because there was almost every Christians across Europe believed in a single future coming of Christ.

John N. Darby is the only person who caused Churches into divsions because of his new teaching on pretribulation. Lead churches into apostasy. Now, you see Christians in America are comforting living conditionals. America is a free and peace country. There is a small persecutions in America today. Christians in America have no idea what taste of persecution look like, because they never face it.

Late Corrie ten Boom warned, America will be the next last country to face coming persecutions. She was a posttribber. Because she already experinced and survived at concentration camp suffering among with Jews during World War II. She was a Gentile Christina. She resecued thousands of Jews from Nazi, by protecting them, even, witnessed them led them to Messiah. Till Nazi found her and her family with Jews in the house. Nazi brought them to conconcentration camp. She survived through it by experincing. She knew what persecutions and tribulations looking like.

She urged us, be strong and stand for the Lord, do not be fear of them, because Christ already overcome them.

She traveled across countries of the world, preached the gospel. She shared of the gospel to thousands, and thousands for Christ. God blessed her faithful servant. She went to be the with Lord at age 93. I highly respect her, because of her godly life, and faithful, also, have a big heart for Jews too.

We should be like her for Christ's sake.

I urage you better to obey what Christ saying, and follow his word, than what you listening to today's modern teachers, pastors, authors on their man-making doctrine (Col. 2:8).

Aren't you willing to be suffer for Christ's sake? - 1 Peter 2:21. Better obey and follow Christ - Luke 9:23.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[trailblazer]

DeafPostTrib,

Very well put! We have nothing to fear of any kind of tribulation - great or small.

Corrie Ten Boom is a great inspiration indeed.

 

[trailblazer]

I need to make a correction at the bottom of my last post on Matt 24. I said that the church will not be raptured out "at" the end of the world. It should have been nor be raptured out "before" the end of the world.

AT NO POINT IN MATTHEW 24 IS THERE ANY INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION OF 70 A.D. OR WILL BE RAPTURED OUT AT THE END OF THE WORLD! TO DISCECT AND INSERT THAT TRUMPTED-UP DOCTRINE IS THE EPITOMY OF SCRIPTURE TWISTING!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Trailblazer: " ... GREAT TRIBULATION OF 70 A.D. ... "

48 Million Christian martyrs don't think that
the tribulation of 69-70AD (where a million
Jews died) was a "great tribulation".

50 Million earthers of 1920 who died in the flu
plague don't think there was a "great" tribulation
in 70AD.

Six Million Jews who died in the ovens of the
Third Reich during 1940-1945 do not speak of a
"great" tribulation in 70AD.

Even Jesus didn't think the 70AD event was
the "great tribulation" for the great tribulation
Jesus describes is:

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of t[/b].
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued : but for
the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

So everything that i can think of that was worse tribulation
after or before the Judah70AD event, proves that
the 70AD event was NOT the great tribulation. There
will be bad stuff happening during the great tribulation.
And it will be worse than what happened (not that it
wasn't bad, it was just limited in scope). The
Hopi in North America at the time never knew about
the termoil in the middle east.

- Ed,
Looking for a future physical literal
1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

 

[Watchman]

Is. 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself , as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.

Again, God's (My) people are in a place of safety until the indignation is past. The source of the indignation?-

21: For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity

 

[Watchman]

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people;

They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Is.2:2-5)

 

[Ed Edwards]

And this happens/happened when according to your eschatological viewpoint?

I believe that in our future,
the Jews who are saved at
the Abomination of Desolation (AOD) when
they see the Antichrist is a phony and
that Jesus must be the real Messiah --
many of them will be protected by the
hand of God (Revelation 12:14). This will
happen to Jewish Israeli elect saints in
the Tribulation day (the mostly gentile
Christians elect staints of the Church Age
will have been raptured out of the world
at the beginning of the tribulation day.)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Watchman:
Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people;

They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Is.2:2-5)

Amen, brother Watchman -- Preach it!

This will be the physical Millinnial Kingdom
of Christ.

 

[Watchman]

Is. 2:19
They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
Rev. 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

 

[Ed Edwards]

The second post on this page refers to
the last post on the previous page
(not to the first post on this page).