Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The soul who sins shall die, unless that person's sin is transferred to an animal, and under the New Covenant to the Righteous One.
The righteousness of the Righteous One shall be upon the wicked and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon the Righteous One.
A Penal Substitution Theory Interpretation
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JonC, Jun 8, 2022.
Page 1 of 7
-
Proverbs 17:15
He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.
In order to satisfy the demands of God's justice, God justifies the wicked by condemning the Righteous. -
Romans 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
God was bound by justice to commit a twofold abomination in order to be just and to justify sinners. -
-
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself -
-
-
@JesusFan
Why do you believe God has to punish sinful actions even if this does not mean punishing the actual transgressor?
Why do you believe that wrath is something that muse be expended or go somewhere? -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Oh boy! Another Penal Substitution thread. Just what we need
1. It is not some random righteous bloke (if there were such a one) whom God has punished against His will. It is actually God Himself in the Person of His Son who has willingly given Himself to redeem chosen sinners (Acts of the Apostles 20:28b).
2. God did not condemn the righteous. The resurrection was the vindication of Christ (Romans 1:4), and 'Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name that is above every name........etc.' (Philippians 2:9ff.
3. I cannot help noticing that you have made no attempt whatsoever to answer my points about Christ being made Mediator and Surety of the New Covenant. Just to remind you of it, I will re-post it presently. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This is a re-posting of my post #105 in the 'Penal Substitution' thread.
And so we read, 'And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' And again, 'Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.' How could the Lord Jesus bear our sins in His own body unless they were transferred to Him?
So why is this allowable? Partly because of two offices held by the Lord Jesus.
In the Scriptures we have the concept of the mediator, one who might fill up the gap between the outraged holiness of God and rebellious man (Isaiah 59:2). Job complained, “For He is not a man, as I am, that I should answer Him, and that we should go to court together. Nor is there any mediator between us who may lay his hand on us both.” But mediation requires a satisfaction to be made to the offended party. We see this is the book of Philemon. Here we have an offended party, Philemon, whose servant has run away from him, perhaps stealing some goods as he went; an offending party, Onesimus, and Paul who is attempting to mediate between them. Onesimus needs to return to his master, but fears the sanctions that may be imposed upon him if he does so. Paul takes these sanctions upon himself: ‘But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account. I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay…..’ (Philemon 18-19). Whatever is wanting to propitiate Philemon’s anger against his servant and to effect reconciliation, Paul the mediator willingly agrees to provide. He does not say, "I can't do that; God does not allow punishment to be transferred from the unrighteous to the righteous. In the same way, the Lord Jesus has become a Mediator between men and God (1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:6).
In 2 Corinthians 5:19, we learn that God does not impute trespasses against His people; in Christ; He has reconciled the world [believing Jew and Gentile alike] to Himself. How has He done this? Through the Mediator Jesus Christ. ‘For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us….’ (v.21). The Lord Jesus has taken our sins upon Himself and made satisfaction to God for them. Therefore the message of reconciliation can be preached to all.
A similar concept is that of a surety. This is someone who guarantees the debts of a friend and must pay them in full if the friend defaults. There are several warnings in the Book of Proverbs against becoming a surety (Proverbs 6:1-5; 11:15; 17:18), since one is making the debts of one’s friend effectively one’s own, yet we read in Hebrews 7:22, ‘By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.’
Christ is specifically designated in Scripture as ‘the last Adam’ (1 Corinthians 15:45) and we are told that the first Adam was a ‘type [or ‘figure’] of Him who was to come’ (Romans 5:14). ‘For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive’ (1 Corinthians 15:22). All those in Adam perish in their sins; all those in Christ are united to Him in His perfect righteousness.
Who are those ‘in Christ’? Those He came to save; those who were given to Him by the Father before time began. “Christ came not to strangers but to ‘brethren (Hebrews 2:11-13). He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His” (A.W. Pink). There are many supporting texts for this, e.g. Matthew 1:21; John 6:39; 10:27-29; 17:2, 6; Ephesians 1:4. Christ is united federally to His people. They are ‘chosen in Christ’ (Ephesians 1:4), ‘Created in Christ’ (Ephesians 2:10); ‘circumcised in Him’ (Colossians 2:11) and ‘made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). But as Surety, the Lord Jesus must also pay the debt of His people, and if they are to be freed from their debt, He must pay the very last penny (Matthew 5:26).
Neither the concept of mediator nor that of surety is repudiated in Scripture. Therefore it is legitimate for our Lord to suffer and die for guilty sinners. 'For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.' -
-
-
-
-
Until you are able to address the presuppositions at the heart of your theory I will continue to post so that others can consider the issue.
But I will use this as an example of my first comment.
You sinned by claiming it took a long time for me to recognize the passage (a passage which I have quoted on this forum long before I encountered you) is in the Bible. That is a sin.
So you sinned....but does that make you wicked? No. You are in Christ, you simple stumbled and lost your integrity on one statement.
Concerning the verse, yes, it pleased God the crush Him. Peter puts it this way - Christ died at the hands of wicked men but this was by the predetermined will of God.
The last part highlights the difference between pagan thought about sacrifice and Christ.
Pagan sacrifice is a propitiation to appease the gods and to turn aside their wrath.
But Christ IS our Propitiation in Whom we escape the wrath to come.
I agree about Scripture. I disagree with your additions and changes to Scripture.
The difference is I believe Christ was vindicated against the World who condemned Him and saw Him as smitted by God and you believe He was vindicated against the Father.
Vindicated does not just mean justified. It is justified against a sin or wrong.
Anyway, when you are up to actually discussing our differences rather than how these differences affect interpretation let me know. Until then all you offer is smoke.
Why do you believe to forgive God must punish sinful actions even if this is not punishing the transgressor? -
-
-
The differences between an infinitely good God and what God cannot permit any sinful man to do. -
The common default for Baptists is that for God to be just and to justify sinners He must somehow exercise judgment in the form of punishment.
But that is not true in that this is not the only way. Another way is to make the wicked sinner no longer wicked (for example, God could cause the wicked to be born again, require repentance, remove the old heart and spirit and give the man new ones, or even put His Spirit in man).
The complaint against those things is it would mean God is able to truly forgive. Penal Substitution Theory denies true forgiveness of a wrong. God can forgive a person only if God punishes the act committed by the person.
That is why I have asked @Martin Marprelate , @Revmitchell and @JesusFan why God has to punish sinful actions even if this is not punishing the actual transgressor.
This has been my question for years. They have, to date, been unable to provide an answer. But Penal Substitution Theory hinges on the type of justice that creates such a need on the judicial system. This philosophy directly influenced their interpretation of Scripture, so I think we need to start here before getting into differences in interpretation. -
Page 1 of 7