A Prayer To The Blessed Virgin...

[tragic_pizza]

I don't see where Ray is disagreeing that Mary birthed Jesus. The disagreement comes in when one takes that Scriptural fact and pursues it to the sublime.

Mary was a faithful woman who did exactly as God directed; a lesson we should all take to heart. Unless one relies on extraScriptural sources speaking centuries after the fact, while a very faithful woman, Mary was no more or less human than you or I.

Mary did not die for my sins, Mary was not raised from the dead to complete the work of salvation on my behalf.

Mary, in short, needed the salvation Jesus offered just as much as do the rest of us. There is nothing wrong and everything right with respecting Mary and with following her example; the danger of idolatry enters when one overemphasises her role, making her in effect coequal with the Savior.

 

[Janosik]

Mary is not elevated above Jesus. She is not equal with the Saviour. Where do you take this information?
She was at His service. She is mother of Jesus. Mary suffered more than any of us when her Son died on the cross.

 

[Charles Meadows]

The magisterium of the RCC obviously does NOT elevate Mary to a place above, or even equal to that of Christ.

I think this "mariolatry" tends to be a little more of a problem for some of the third world church, particularly in parts of Latin America where some of the average churchmen do in a sense "worship" Mary.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Janosik:
Mary is not elevated above Jesus. She is not equal with the Saviour. Where do you take this information?
She was at His service. She is mother of Jesus. Mary suffered more than any of us when her Son died on the cross.

I wish I could post a photograph of art I've seen with Mary and Christ standing side-by-side, both indicating their (graphically portrayed) hearts. This isn't, by the way, in a third-world country, unless you count the road leading to the Shrine of the Holy Eucharist in Cullman, Alabama as a third-world country.

 

[Janosik]

As you said it's art but it's not the RCC teaching. On the other side remember she is integral part of great mysteries of salvation history. Maybe this is what the art displays.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Janosik:
As you said it's art but it's not the RCC teaching. On the other side remember she is integral part of great mysteries of salvation history. Maybe this is what the art displays.

What integral part, aside from her willingness to serve?

 

[Janosik]

By will of the God she was chosen. She agreed. Jesus was conceived by her through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born. Mary is his mother. She suffered under the cross in a way that it's hard to imagine.

When I honor Mary I show respect to God and His will as well. If I went like 'Mary, ok nothing special' I would undermine God's decision. I don't want to do that.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Janosik:
By will of the God she was chosen. She agreed. Jesus was conceived by her through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born. Mary is his mother. She suffered under the cross in a way that it's hard to imagine.

When I honor Mary I show respect to God and His will as well. If I went like 'Mary, ok nothing special' I would undermine God's decision. I don't want to do that.

Please point out exactly who in this discussion is encouraging you to do that.

 

[Living4Him]

I wish I could post a photograph of art I've seen with Mary and Christ standing side-by-side, both indicating their (graphically portrayed) hearts

Ah the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. A wonderful and beautiful picture.

Mary's heart is united inseparably to that of her divine Son, representing the total dedication of Mary to chastity, poverty and obedience and the acceptance of the Divine Will of God.

Sacred Heart of Jesus -The prayer of the Church venerates and honors the Heart of Jesus just as it invokes his most holy name. It adores the incarnate Word and his Heart which, out of love for men, he allowed to be pierced by our sins.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
You're exaggerating some Bob. Co-redemptrix does not make Mary equal to Christ in her role - more of an assistant. I still however am repulsed by it.

CO-mediatrix not sub-mediatrix.

CO-redemptrix not sub-redemptrix

ALL powerful LIKE Christ -- not "somewhat powerful unlike God".

But that is just the easy part.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25

 

[BobRyan]

But wait! There's more...

 

[LorrieGrace]

I do not think that I need to pray to Mary to be able to access the Father. It is almost like you are saying Mary is a receptionist letting the important calls through while handling the less important ones herself. It makes no sense!

I also know that you can have a mass said for the dead. WHY? What good will it do? The instant those souls left their bodies they were in eternity, whether with the Saviour or in hell. To me it seems that it would be more effective to pray for the lost that still have life left in them than to waste precious time for those who have departed earth.

 

[Bethany]

I think the original poster is confusing a prayer to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel:

O Beautiful Flower of Carmel, most fruitful vine, splendor of heaven, holy and singular, who brought forth the Son of God, still ever remaining a pure virgin, assist us in our necessity! O Star of the Sea, help and protect us! Show us that you are our Mother!
(pause and mention petitions)

Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be

Our Lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us.

with the Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that any one who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins my Mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me, Amen.

 

[DHK]

Either way it is idolatry, a breaking of the Ten Commandments, and heresy. It puts the RCC in the same class as Hinduism where they pray to more than one god.
DHK

 

[Bethany]

DHK, Catholics don't believe Mary is a god.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Bethany:
DHK, Catholics don't believe Mary is a god.

Technically, no. But only God is worthy of worship. Catholics worship Mary as is demonstrated in many of the prayers posted above, and especially in the posts made by Bob Ryan. Mary is definitely worshiped, and adored. Since that worship and adoration belongs only to God, then Catholics treat one who is not God as a god. That is idolatry. You say she is not a god, but you treat her as if she is a god.
DHK

 

[Seth3]

Mary is a "patern" for the body of Christ. As Paul says of those to who he spoke to in order to present THEM as a Chaste virgin to one husband To Christ.That the TWO become ONE Flesh in the same patern as Adam and Eve. This spoke of a Mystery of Christ and the church (Christ in you your hope of Glory) a SIGN that would be spoken against is the New birth of the Spiritual man growing up into the full measure to the Stature of Christ as Sons of God.

We then become HIS flesh and bone (not flesh and blood) we have died then (the life of the creature is in the blood) we lose our life and gain HIS. Thus we become the Flesh and bone of the Lord and His Blood=Life is ours.

So that which was seen as Two becomes one NEW MAN seen in a fore thought of God in Genesis chapter 5.

First Adam dies Second Adam lives in us. Spiritual truths about the New Creation in Christ.

But if we are to be literal about it, the New Jerusalem which is from above is Mother of us all.


God bless

Seth3

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Seth3:
Mary is a "patern" for the body of Christ. As Paul says of those to who he spoke to in order to present THEM as a Chaste virgin to one husband To Christ.That the TWO become ONE Flesh in the same patern as Adam and Eve. This spoke of a Mystery of Christ and the church (Christ in you your hope of Glory) a SIGN that would be spoken against is the New birth of the Spiritual man growing up into the full measure to the Stature of Christ as Sons of God.

We then become HIS flesh and bone (not flesh and blood) we have died then (the life of the creature is in the blood) we lose our life and gain HIS. Thus we become the Flesh and bone of the Lord and His Blood=Life is ours.

So that which was seen as Two becomes one NEW MAN seen in a fore thought of God in Genesis chapter 5.

First Adam dies Second Adam lives in us. Spiritual truths about the New Creation in Christ.

But if we are to be literal about it, the New Jerusalem which is from above is Mother of us all.

God bless
Seth3

The trouble with your post is that it is mere speculation without any foundation in Scripture. That Mary was a pattern for all to follow is not found in Sdripture. The passage in Eph.5 does not refer to Mary, it refers to every wife being a chaste virgin. That was more than 90% of the maidens of Israel at that time who were looking forward to getting married. Mary just happened to be one of them--one among many. Paul was referring to the institution of marriage, not to the chastity of Mary. Mary never remained a virgin. She had other children through Joseph (Mat.13:55).

Mary is not the mother of us all, any more than Deborah, one of the judges is the mother of us all. She also was called "blessed above all women." Or perhaps Sarah, who shared in the promise of Abraham, as the mother of many nations. Mary was no more blessed than these godly women. She is not the mother of us all. Where do you get these outlandish claims? Certainly not from Scripture.

Mary was a sinner. She, at the time of the circumcision of Jesus, went and presented a sin offering to the priest at the temple. Why the sin offering? Because she was a sinner and knew it. The Bible inidicates that Mary was just as wicked as the thief on the cross. How?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mary had sinned. If you break the law, or sin, you are just as guilty as if you had broken the whole law--murder, theft, adulter, etc. God doesn't differentiate between sin. Only the Catholic Church does that. Sin is sin. Sin is a transgression of the law (1John 3:4). The consequence of sin may be different. But the penalty of sin is the same--eternal separation from God in a place called Hell. That is why Christ died for our sin. That is why Mary presented a sin offering. She knew that she was a sinner.
DHK

 

[Seth3]

DHK,

What are you talking about? As A woman giving birth to a child has her pain because her time is come so it is with you (To His disciples) They as a Woman (The Church) was to give birth to Christ in them. I see Mary only as a "patern" to the truth of what God was really doing. I think the disciples had a good idea that they were sinners don't you?

Paul said to those he was laboring among, He desire to present them as a (Spiritually) chaste virgin (to one Husband) to Christ.

He said he was in pains until Christ was FORMED IN THEM.

The reality is not Mary its Christ in us as His Church.

So whats your point? You have to have one right?

New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from God is our Mother. I said nothing that Mary was. I'm not talking about physical virginity and could care less really.


God bless

Seth3