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A simple fact

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by glad4mercy, May 8, 2018.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [Turn the question around.]
    If Christ died for all their sins, then why are they being condemned for the sin of unbelief ... Christ died to cover it with His blood!
     
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9) (KJV 1900)


    “And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17:11) (KJV 1900)


    “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:20) (KJV 1900)

    So in this, Jesus is not praying for the world of unbelievers. But only those who believed or would believe on him. And faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit whose presence precedes faith having faith.
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Mitchell... You don't know me and I don't know you... Only on this board, if you know anything about me its because I tell you... Scripture is my experience and experience my scripture... How long have you been on this board anyway?... Brother Glen:)

    Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    A long time. What I do know is that in this particular discussion you have refused to use or address scripture I have used. Instead what you have given me is anecdotes devoid of scripture. You seem to appeal to emotion empty of reason or logic. I am not commenting on your life as a whole, I am commenting on your interaction in this particular thread.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Rm has posted 42000 times.....41700 use no scripture, and yet he is annoyed that your last post did not have scripture:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Cautious
     
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  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    None of that has anything to do with what I said. When Jesus prayed for those who the Father had given Him He was not praying for all believers only the immediate disciples. To say otherwise is to divorce it from its context.
     
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your continued interest in this. As I see it, he also prayed for those who would believe the gospel, not those who would reject it.
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Which is not relevant. That was a different part of the prayer. You cannot rightly use John 17:6 and apply it to all believers. It is only a reference to His immediate disciples. The fact that He prayers later for everyone else does not change that.
     
  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Relevent or not, Jesus prayed for the disciples, and for those (us) who would believe the gospel. We assume too much when we have Jesus pray for the world when he says he did not.
     
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  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    UH I never said he did nor do I believe that.
     
  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply. What I'm saying is that Jesus did not pray for the world or unbelievers. He prayed only for his disciples then present and future. Christian = disciple.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Either you completely missed my original point or your obfuscating. At this point I will pass on commenting any further on your poor calvinistic eisegesis.
     
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  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I'm only saying what John wrote without adding any interpretation. If you could prove my doing otherwise, I would welcome the correction and seek to be more precise.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Well you did interpret it (unless you do not know what that means?) but you are still missing my point or something.
     
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” (John 17:9) (KJV 1900)


    “Neither [same prayer] pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17:20–21) (KJV 1900)
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    His immediate disciples are the ones the Father gave Him. Doesn't apply to all believers just the immediate disciples.
     
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  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I've been saying that for a while now. Many miss the audience in that context.

    To take it a step further--There were those who were anticipating the messiah and believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ. John begins his Gospel talking about that--Andrew and Simon, etc.

    Jesus says "He knew those who believed (current audience Christ was addressing)." And He goes further to say that "If YOU TRULY believed Moses, you would believe Me." And those who TRULY BELIEVED Moses, the Father would Give to the LORD Jesus to Shepherd--Because He and His Father are ONE! Christ is making a point--if you say that you follow God, than you would follow CHRIST--and the Father gives His Children to Christ to Shepherd because they are the One and the Same GOD! He's not talking about a future group of people from 2018--He's saying that if you follow God and Listen to His Word then you would follow Me and Listen to My Word because I've Come from the Father! It's a specific conversation to a specific audience that cannot be repeated!
     
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  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yep here are some others:

    Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    Mat_15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
     
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  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Here is another powerful one--when understood properly in its context...

    John 6:64
    "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

    John's talking about the Crowds that would follow Him during Christ's earthly ministry--not America 2018.
     
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  20. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Jesus is primarily dealing with the unbelieving Jewish Leaders and He says this...

    41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?


    45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

    John 5

    And so "Who comes to the Son?" The Ones who were TRULY following the FATHER!!!!!!!!!!

    This is not repeatable in 2018.
     
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