I won't say you haven't made a valid point, you have as far as Exodus goes with an exception I list below, but Luke is a "special case" situation and can't apply. In fact it works to your disfavor in your argument because God controls when a spirit is sent into a person and has, for most people, decided that it will be when breath enters the nostrils. However, that doesn't mean he can't send in a spirit before life occurs.
Since we don't see leaping babies in wombs, we can assume this was a special case baby with a spirit that other babies don't have since no other baby leaps in their mother's wombs. Additionally, the very argument Helen and some other here are making that spirit is separate from breath hurts your argument in Luke in that way also, if they are correct.
As far as Exodus goes, the same argument against it can be made against the Numbers 5 verses I posted. Being that it was a man made law and interpretation of life, which certain religious leaders were allowed to make. The same law gives the right to stone a man to death when he curses his parents. I don't think that was a law dictated directly from God, but rather a man created law derived under the influence of God, but containing some man-made mistakes. Another mistake was that all virgins will bleed on their wedding night. We see that some of these law and interpretation is clearly man-made.
Abortion
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Apr 7, 2003.
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I do not understand how anyone could try to put a positive face on abortion. It should be illegal and anyone who has an abortion and the doctor who executes it, should be tried for murder. Abortion meets all the criteria for murder; it takes a life, it is coldhearted, and it is premeditated (malice). Lord help those who try to defend it, and Lord help us if we continue to let them succeed.
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Crying murder is nothing but Histrionics. Unless you feel completely out of control on this the most heinous of crimes against innocent life, you should be striking back at the Government. No, you won't because you know inside that it isn't really murder and you are content with our Government leaders and their decision on abortion. -
IT IS MURDER, END OF STORY, PERIOD.......
GOD BLESS AMERICA -
Why are we allowing Bush to murder millions of innocent lives every year? I just don't think we are. If you do, and have done nothing about it, what does that say about your Christian values?
We are ready to kill thousands in order to rid Iraq of less. We commit genocide in our own country and do nothing. Would we be imprisoned if we did something about it? ... Yes! So how different are we from any other dictator run country?
I'm for the war but now you all have got me doubting our own situation and how our leader could be murdering far more than Saddam ever did. -
First, I support the war for national defense reasons, not humanitarian ones. Second, it is dishonest to assume that we aren't doing anything. The Pro-life movement is making progress as reflected in numerous polls. Specifically, a recent poll shows a significant shift in the views of college age people over the past 20 years.
The fact that Bush seems intent on nominating pro-lifers to the federal judiciary is also a major victory. Hopefully, he will use the next recess to seat Estrada.
While there is still a peaceful way of resolving the issue, we should persist. There were no peaceful options with promise left with regard to Saddam.
At it again eh Post-It, playing those semantical games... trying to define the debate in a way that guarantees your win. I would have hoped you might have adopted more honest tactics by now. -
What have you done about a situation that you believe is 10 times worse than the NAZI Holocaust? Come on, you don't really think it is mass murder do you? -
It absolutely is mass murder, post-it.
You know, when a baby dies inside the mother before it is born, the doctor doesn't say, "that dead thing in you is now more dead." The doctor say, "Your baby died."
When I lost a little girl at four months along, people who knew about it were so kind. They said things like "I'm so sorry you lost your daughter." She wasn't a dead thing. She was my daughter -- a living human being that my body kicked out because I conceived too close to the time I had been kicked by a horse and I just couldn't do it. There was nothing wrong with her. But I felt like the horse who kicked me even before she was conceived had also killed my baby as well as damaged me.
A baby inside the mother is either alive or dead. And a baby that is developing, has its own DNA, is moving later, is responding to stimulus and sounds -- this is not a dead thing.
And when that baby is aborted, it is the willing and planned termination of a human life.
That's called murder. -
President Bush is NOT the one murdering those babies. If he was the only one who had a say in it, there would be no more abortion. He is signing a bill against 'partial-birth' abortions as soon as the House passes it. It has already passed in the Senate.
BTW, Bill Clinton would not sign it when he was in office. To me, Clinton WAS responsible for murder because he COULD have stopped some of it and did not.
Christians are not simply sitting around letting this happen. Who do you think the lobbyists are and what are they doing? Who do you think runs all the Crisis Pregnancy Centers? Many of the churches furnish a place for the mother to stay during her confinement and find homes for these babies when the mother decides not to abort.
Just had to add MHO,
Sue -
Yeah, Sue, 'leaping' is a good term! My son also played with my ribs! He would kick one of my floating ribs out until it snapped back. As a result of his on private play time on my body, I had bruised ribs when he was born. My husband couldn't hug me very tight for several months after! Scott would also kick the ice tray across the counter when I braced it against my belly to pull the lever back and crack the ice out (remember that kind of ice tray?). I don't know if he thought it was a game or if he was just objecting to the compression! The last few weeks of pregnancy, he ALLOWED me to sleep on my right side only. On my left side he would kick until I rolled over! He would also get hiccups right before the long quiet periods of sleep. He will be 30 this year. He still hiccups when he is tired!
For something that was not alive inside me, he was putting on quite a show! -
Helen
I remember being afraid something was wrong when I was pregnant with my first child and I rushed to the doctor's office. His diagnosis? The baby had the hiccups.
I used to sit a small tray of bobby pins (remember those?) on my stomach while sitting in a chair curling my hair. Guess who always kicked them off? It wasn't me!
(Yes, I remember the old metal ice cube trays very well) :eek:
Sue -
Post-It.... I won't respond to you with Pro-life Bible verses because you twist them. I won't bother to bore you with the years my husband was a Republican State Rep fighting against abortion. Scripture tells me to 'Not cast my pearls before swine'. I won't waste the time.
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After hearing all you women talk about how common it is for a baby to leap in the womb, it shows that really nothing out of the ordinary happen to John when Elisabeth was filled with the holy spirit. It was just a kick or leap that all babies do. This kinda takes away from the whole argument that something special happened to little John while he was still in the womb.
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please let me step in..
while i would stand with the anti-abortion group, i do not see abortion as murder.
is abortion fine? no.
should it be stopped? yes
is it murder? no.
are there exceptional cases to allow abortion? well, frankly, i'm not sure. if there is a situation where a couple has to choose between aborting a child or letting the mother die due to some illness, i think they can have abortion.
if a rape victim gets pregnant, i think she can have abortion but should have it immediately.
i say abortion should not be allowed.
but i say it is not murder, as it is what i see scriptures tell. emotionally, i'd say it is murder. however, biblically, i'd say otherwise. -
Post-it said:
blas·phe·my
A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct. -
Post-it, because ALL babies do move, and sometimes strongly and with purpose, in the womb, and because Elizabeth was six month along when the visit by Mary occurred and so knew the movements of her baby, you can be sure that something extraordinary happened or it would not have been mentioned in the Bible.
Aki, the premeditated taking of an innocent human life is murder by definition. Biblically and legally. -
well, abortion is murder if the baby in the womb is said to have life. is the baby in the womb considered human life?
biblically, what we must consider is that human life is composed of both biological life and soul. without the soul, there is no human life, only biological life. when, then, is the soul imputed to each man? if it's at birth, then there really is no human life yet at the womb, and therefore no murder. the bible teaches the soul to be imputed at birth. -
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Post-It, your argument seems to rest on the ability to "breath." You seem to be saying that until the baby is able to draw oxygen, you don't consider it "alive."
Think carefully about this.
ALL life requires oxygen--even in the womb. The baby in the womb is receiving oxygen through the blood. That oxygenated blood is absorbed, and the cells continue to energize and grow and create more cells because they've received oxygen.
The baby "breaths" through amniotic fluid.
If your main criteria is whether the baby is able to breath oxygen or not, then yes, the embryo/fetus is drawing oxygen well before birth.
Would you please care to clarify further? -
But, if you don't believe me, then
2. Here are what the experts say:
nephesh: "living being, soul, person, self" Dr. Robert Ellis, former professor of Hebrew at SWBTS and my former Hebrew prof.
"Self, person, life"-Bonnie Pedrotti Kittel, Vicki Hoffer, and Rebecca Abts Wright in their book "Biblical Hebrew: A Text and Workbook" published by Yale University Press.
"soul, life, person, living being, blood, desire"-Brown, Driver, and Briggs, p. 659, Oxford University Press.
"life, soul, creature, person, appetite, and mind"-Harris, Archer, and Waltke, p. 587, Moody Press.
Ruach:
"Spirit, breath, wind"-Dr. Robert Ellis, former professor of Hebrew at SWBTS and my former Hebrew prof.
"Wind, spirit, breath"-Bonnie Pedrotti Kittel, Vicki Hoffer, and Rebecca Abts Wright in their book "Biblical Hebrew: A Text and Workbook" published by Yale University Press.
"Breath, wind, spirit"-Brown, Driver, and Briggs, p. 924, Oxford University Press.
"Wind, breath, mind, spirit"-Harris, Archer, and Waltke, p. 836, Moody Press.
So now, maybe you might cite your sources whom you claim to be experts on the Hebrew language?
Joseph Botwinick
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