Thanks for explaining it Tom. I wouldn't quite put it like man picks God so God picked man, rather God draws all men and knew whom of their own choosing would accept and be saved. God wills and draws men to be saved that will actually not end up being saved (they resist, reject and rebel). The result is that those whom did believe God foreknew and had already elected them even through allowing the events of the lives and choices of those individuals to play out, God knew that they would believe and what it would take to persaude them to believe.
That does not mean God decided not to attempt to draw some knowing they wouldn't believe because the scripture teaches God loved the world, Holy Spirit convicting the world, desired all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, the gospel preached to every creature...etc
Taking your point into account I still think God does the electing from eternity past.
Darren
Acts 2:48 Apointed or Disposed
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Aug 8, 2009.
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God chose Israel to whom He would reveal himself and to no other nation as Psalm 147:19-20 explains. Israel are God's chosen people.
But as Romans 9:6-9 explains, Israel isn't the biological children of israel, but children of the promise. that means that the real israel are the Jews and gentiles chosen before the creation of the world to be God's elect.
So God absolutely does the choosing. So it doesn't do any good to quarrel about words as 2 Timothy 2:14 explains, especially if you don't reconcile one verse with the rest of scripture. -
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Darren -
I understand that you would prefer some other description than I picked God, so he picked me. The alternative, though is, God picked me, and so I picked God. And that is Calvinism. So that won't work for you, either.
But honestly, I don't know of a more succinct way to put it. The foreseen faith view demands that you act before God does in election. It demands that you choose Christ before God elects you. That's why you called it conditional election. Conditional election means God can't act until you do.
Now you might respond, well, it's not that God can't act; it is that he won't act, and there's a difference. Yes, but the result is the same. -
Please understand that when I speak of God's seeing ones faith in the future, then elects him, I'm not suggesting that there is any time when God doesn't see all and know all. God does not walk around on the clouds, and one day it pops into his mind that I'm going to trust Christ in, say, 1947. So, God thinks, I'll elect him.
So it's not a chronological sequence; instead it's a logical sequence that non-Cals are arguing.
Which, of course, I don't buy. I'm just trying to accurately state the view, and point out the implications of holding that opinion.
Never fear, my non-Cal brothers will jump on this pretty fast. -
Darren -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Darren,
I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I don't agree with some of what you say, but I am finding myself enjoying our exchange very much.
A few things you brought up:
1. You mention "Foreknowledge." I take that you mean this in the typical non-reformed view--that God looked through time and saw who would have faith and then elected them. If this is what you mean, where do you see this in Scripture?
2. Even in the Old Testament there is an "elect" Israel inside of corporate Israel (kind of like the visible church and the invisible church). This can be plainly seen in 1 Kings 19:18 where God says to Elijah "Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." The Hebrew (of the verb will leave, if memory serves) is a Niphal stem which is reflexive. So, God is keeping for Himself 7,000 non-Baal worshipers. In fact, Paul in Romans 11:4 quotes this passage and puts the Hebrew Niphal into plain Greek.
3. The Passive voice of "Born Again" (and many of the other verbs too) suggest that this is something God does. The nature of the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus and what Jesus refers to (a reference to Ezekiel 36:26) shows the initializing work of redemption to be God's doing.
4. Even with the Law (and you're right it can't/doesn't save), salvation was always based on faith. Faith is counted as righteousness in the Old and New Testaments--although Jesus is the object of the faith in the NT whereas God the Father was the object in the OT.
The keeping of the law in the OT was a fruit of faith; the Law did not instill faith. So, there are fruits of faith in the Old and New Testaments. So, I don't think the differences are nearly as wide as you seem to think.
I'll think more and try to articulate things better.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
eg. Isa 41:4, 46:10 - Cyrus Isa 41:4, Jeremiah Jer 1:5, the Crucifixion (Isa 53), Revelations of future events..etc How exactly? Predestination, foreknowledge, election, God's purposes coming to pass.. Yes but how God does those things specifically I don't know. I'm sure there are possible explanations such as the above (looking ahead through time), I can't say I'm certain either way if the bible has a definite answer on that.
So to make a short story long, I think OT "election" has a different implication and usage than the election for the sinner to be saved through the New Covenant.
Apologies because of my lack of ability in explaining my point.
God bless.
Darren -
The firstborn represents the old covenant, the second born represents the new. that's because the firstborn was born in the natural way and the 2nd sons were born as the result of a promise.
That means as Romans 9:6-9 explains, it is not the biological children of Israel who are Israel, it's the children of the promise. The first sons represented the letter of the law, i.e., circumcision, inheritance rights, but the second sons were chosen by God.
So the first sons were born of the flesh, the second sons became born of the B] Spirit[/B].
That's explaining that those whom God chooses for salvation whether today or in ancient times are chosen by HIM, which shows that it's GOD'S SOVEREIGN CHOICE WHOM HE CHOOSES AND WHOM HE DOES NOT, as Romans 9:16 explains. John 15:16, "You did not choose me, I chose you." -
What is our basic problem?
This is what I believe it is and I suppose it's a statement of the obvious:
There is something missing in our understanding of God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility within the scope of His sovereignty.
Further, I don't believe it's an entity that is completely revealed.
For one thing, we are caught up in this thing called the time continuum trying to understand and explain something that was a "done deal" before we even existed and it even passed through said time stream.
How can we say something antecedes or postcedes something else which has a schema and reality developed in eternity before the world of space, time and matter even existed?
ASV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.
Personally, after decades of off an on contemplation of the salvation provided the human race throught the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ, I reject both the human names of the conflicting sides of "how He did it".
Rather (and for now) I categorize it under something the Scripture calls:
1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
My beef is not so much with calvinism or arminianism so much as it is with their divisiveness. Both are honest but inadequate (IMO) human attemps to understand our eternal Father and His works.
To be honest, I find more comfort with the TULIP view (4.5).
Which is based upon both certain Scripture.
However, and to be honest, I see and understand the other side as well.
Which is also based upon Scripture.
I suppose therefore that I am of two minds (understandably not a good place to be according to the Book of James).
But my conscience is clear as I have (for the most part) taken off the gloves and stepped out of the ring as I know many others have done.
For those things I don't understand, there is a Scripture as well:
Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
HankD -
And as I ask repeatedly, were OT saints regenerated, given a new heart and born again in order to believe God and follow the law? I can't see that as a fact taught in scripture, so even God's election for OT salvation of the faithful few still functioned through different means to that of the NT election to salvation. None of that bypasses man's freedom of choice in responding when God intervenes. Even Israelites were rebellious throughout history which shows that the Old covenant did not change man on the inside, yet many Jews did love and follow God of their choosing, they were faithful by their own free will.
Joshua 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
How God runs His universe I don't know BUT He does. How God can be Sovereign over man whom has their own will, I don't know BUT He is. How God knows the future and can decree future events to occur accordng to His purpose, I don't know....
Darren -
Darren
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