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Age of Accountability

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by APuritanMindset, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    So did all those infants choose "to believe not" and therefore are condemned.
     
  2. Do children and infants go to heaven when they die?
    It all depends if they have a knowledge of right from wrong as in an understanding of the Law of God. We are all born with a sin nature, separated from God spiritually, and with a conscious. In a child these things haven’t developed enough to judge right from wrong according to the Law of God. We receive punishment according to what we have done. (2 Cor. 5:10) breaking the Law of God. We are judged by our deeds (Rev 20:11-12) again breaking the Law of God. But, Paul said that there is an age of accountability before a human being is condemned to eternal death (Romans 14:12) Ah, ha so herein lies the crux of the matter, what is the age of accountability?

    David who had the heart of God said that he will see his dead son when he himself dies (2 Samuel 12:23). Therefore he himself thought that his son was in heaven and that when he died he would see his son. But what does God say on the matter directly? When the disobedient Hebrews refused to cross over into the holy land, a type of heaven, God condemned them all to die, except: “Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it” Deuteronomy 1:39. So here God himself says that there is an age before a person has knowledge of right from wrong. This is the age of accountability.

    How old is that? I don’t know it is a matter for each individual child. But, surely babies will go to heaven.


    [​IMG]
     
  3. Watch it DHK, now we will get people going on, you HAVE to be baptized to be saved :confused:
     
  4. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    HUH???? :confused: :confused:
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    HUH???? :confused: :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]That is what I think! Huh???? :confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  6. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    These words are for those that reach their accountability stage in life. I trust Jesus to judge souls that do not reach that stage. He is the only one that is capable to do so. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Good pointRFW, but the words were said. That was true for the gospel of the "great commission".Christian faith, ituttut
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Helen wrote,

    Helen,

    Where are you getting these strange ideas from? The “I” in Romans 7 is rhetorical! We know that because the “I” of Romans 7 is not at all Paul. For example, Paul wrote of himself in Philippians 3,

    If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
    5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
    6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

    7:7-11?

    Paul’s letters and his theology have been my primary field of study for more than 25 years. I have carefully and prayerfully studied hundreds of interpretations of Romans 7, and your interpretation is most definitely somewhere in the far reaches of outer space.

    7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
    8. But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
    9. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
    10. and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
    11. for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

    The “I” here in this passage is NOT the man Paul (or Saul), and we know that for a fact because Paul explicitly tells us in Phil. 3 that prior to his conversion he was “found blameless.” And Paul explicitly taught in Rom. 5 that all men (and women) have sinned in Adam. Therefore it is absolutely impossible to come to the conclusion that Paul meant to say that he was “spiritually with God” at any time BEFORE he was saved! “As to the righteousness which is in the Law,” Paul was, before his conversion, “found blameless,” but he desperately needed a savior because he had sinned in Adam.

    Infants die! That is an incontrovertible fact. And between the sin of Adam and the giving of the law, people of all ages died, even though “sin is not imputed when there is no law.” Roman 5:13. Infants die today, and people of all ages died between the sin of Adam and the giving of the law, because the wages of sin is death, and the only sin imputed to the infants today and the people of all ages who died between the sin of Adam and the giving of the law is the ORIGINAL SIN.

    Plain, simple and undeniable fact: The sin of Adam is imputed to infants today, The absolute proof of that is that some of them die—and they would NOT die if sin was not imputed to them. Or, to put it another way, if they were not accountable for the sin of Adam, they would not be subject to death. But they do die! Therefore they are accountable for the original sin. And most certainly, if children are accountable for the original sin in which they had no real and active part, those children who actively and willfully sin against God and man are accountable for those sins, and the wages of sin is death!

    We have ALL sinned in Adam, and we are ALL made righteous in Christ. If it were not for Christ, we would still be guilty of Adams sin, for his sin is imputed to us.

    So, of whom is Paul writing using the Rhetorical “I.” He tells us very plainly of whom he is writing. He is writing of the man who was “once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came [the Law was given], sin became alive and that man died. Why did that man die? Paul tells us very plainly why that man died,
    1 Cor. 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
    57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This man, however alive he may have thought himself to be, having no sense of having violated a law that was not yet given, was NOT immortal for he was not free from the guilt of ORIGINAL SIN. Death is the absolute and incontrovertible proof of sin and the accountability it for it—and death knows no age of accountability.

    Christ undid what Adam did. He paid the penalty of Adam’s sin that was imputed to us and he fulfilled the Law on our behalf that we might be delivered from the Law, its power, and its consequences.

    Rom. 6:14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. So whats your point Craig ?

    Babies die because of Adams sin, so ? We all know that, doesn't mean they go to Hell. God made a way for them to go to Heaven through his spirit.

    They didn't have the ability to REJECT the gospel so God provided them a way to heaven through his Grace.
     
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    sorry, Craig, but I just read what Paul wrote and believed it as he wrote it. He was blameless legally, but most certainly not spiritually, as he states in Romans 7. His "I" is himself. He knew how to write in the first person or the third person, and he chose the first person there. His message is extremely clear when taken as its straightforward meaning indicates.

    We are delivered, as Christians, from judgment by law, but most certainly not from those consequences of disobeying it which God allows in our lives! For instance, if you are a true Christian, and, for some reason, you bear false witness against your neighbor, you could suffer consequences anywhere from an estranged relationship to getting sued for slander or even lying in court. This does not affect your salvation, but you will find there are consequences!

    The law has not changed. Matthew 5. It will not change. It's purpose is, as it always has been, to show us what sin is. It cannot save. It never could. But then, as already mentioned, neither can sin condemn any longer, for that price has been paid.

    And that was a valid point that seemed to be ignored. It doesn't matter, really, if you think babies sin or not, or if children sin or not. Their sins have been just as paid for as anyone else's -- by Christ.

    And since Christ said the children are His, they are His. Until such time as they refuse Him and estrange themselves from God intentionally, which is what our sin nature leads to in all of us once we are mentally capable of understanding the law (as Paul says in Romans 7), they remain His. Christ said it. I believe it. Paul reaffirmed it.

    In addition, the idea that I am responsible for or guilty of anyone else's sin, including Adam's is bizarre. We read in the Bible that each man is responsible for his own sins, and I have commited quite enough of my own that I most certainly didn't need Adam's too. He was accountable for his own sin, not mine, and vice versa. He may have been responsible for the fact that I was born with a sin nature, but he is not responsible for my sins. Nor am I responsible for his. I bear the consequences of his sin, but am not responsible for it. Just like a child may be born blind if the mother has syphalis, the child bears the consequences but none of the guilt.
     
  11. Craig you have yet to address this truth I have made on any of the 3 threads. What say you ? Since you believe you can lose your salvation !

    This was my whole crux on how BABIES get to Heaven or how ANYONE gets to heaven. PERIOD !

    Most people do not understand that it ISN'T sin that sends you to HELL. It's your CONDITION that sends you there. One doesn't have to SIN to go to Hell, just the fact that we were born SEPERATED from a Holy God is enough. God told Adam and Eve that they would DIE if they ate of the tree of good and evil. They didn't die PHYSICALLY that day they died SPIRITUALLY
    ( death means seperation ).

    MARK 3:28-29 says " Truly I say to you ALL SINS will be forgiven of man and whatever blasphemies they utter; BUT whoever blasphemes AGAINST the Holy Spirit NEVER has forgiveness, but is guilty of an ETERNAL SIN !

    Babies cannot blasphemy against the gospel. I don't know about you but I have never known a baby in the womb or a very young one who understood the human language, so how can he reject something he has never heard ? It is when a child hears the Gospel ( at whatever age that may be, my sons were 4 and 6 when they were saved ) and if he UNDERSTANDS the gospel and rejects it then he is held accountable.

    Your CONDITION sends you to Hell not SIN !
    Being in a new right relationship with God sends you to Heaven. Not doing good works or living right.

    That is why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be BORN AGAIN ~ Right Relationship with God ! AMEN
     
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    RightFromWrong wrote,

    Babies die because the sin of Adam is imputed to them, thus they are accountable for that sin.

    This is not the hell thread; this is the accountability thread!

    I do not get my theology out of philosophy magazines—I get my theology from the Bible—and where in the Bible does it say that God made a way for them to go to heaven through His Spirit?

    This is not the REJECT the gospel thread; this is the accountability thread! And we know that babies are accountable for Adams sin because babies die and they would not die if sin was not imputed to them. In other words, they would not die if they were not held accountable for sin.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Craig where in the Bible does it say he DIDN'T make a way ? There is more in the Bible pointing to babies GOING to Heaven than Not.

    1) David said he would see his son again, obviously he meant Heaven.

    2) Jesus said hinder NOT the children they BELONG to me. He didn't say that about adults.

    3) We are born with a sinful CONDITION that can only be Changed by Gods spirit. And the ONLY way that is done is. Mark 3:28-29 Through accepting the gospel. Babies and mentally handicaped people CANNOT do that. So their sin is automatically forgiven.

    4) When the disobedient Hebrews refused to cross over into the holy land, a TYPE OF HEAVEN, God condemned them all to die, except: “Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it” Deuteronomy 1:39. So here God himself says that there is an age before a person has knowledge of right from wrong. This is the age of accountability. Quote from One Of His Sheep


    5)A loving God would NOT send innocent babies and retarded people to HELL !

    Sorry but you are in the minority AGAIN :(
     
  14. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Helen wrote,

    Your interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans appears to be that of one who has read it in an English translation with the mindset of a 21st century Baptist Christian who has read absolutely no Greek literature and who has no knowledge at all of the use of the rhetorical first person singular and plural in Greek prose of poetry. I have found that such persons are almost always totally unfamiliar with the literature on Romans and Pauline theology, and they are of the opinion that they can understand Romans very clearly without having an education, and that those who do have an education and therefore radically disagree with them are totally confused.

    However, in the first few weeks that I was a Christian, I became fascinated with the Epistle to the Romans, and in order to better understand it, I read through the New Testament many times, over and over again, praying to God to open my heart and mind to His word. After reading through the New Testament 15 times, I began to very carefully and prayerfully read and re-read the Epistle to the Romans, comparing what Paul wrote there with what he wrote in his other epistles, and what Luke wrote about Paul in the Book of Acts. And as I prayed and studied, the Holy Spirit helped me to understand the Epistle to the Romans and the theology of Paul.

    I then began to study the Epistle to the Romans academically, first in English, and then in Greek, and then in other languages into which it has been translated. I learned that throughout the history of the church the Holy Spirit has helped others to understand the Epistle to the Romans, but that there were many others who relied on their own intellect and their own interpretive ability and who, as a consequence, came up with the very most bizarre and ridiculous interpretations.

    I have, since then, spent very much time studying New Testament theology, and the history of the interpretation of the New Testament and the Epistle to the Romans in particular, and the factors that have led various scholars and students of that epistle to interpret it in the manner that they have.

    There have been, over the years, a number men who devoted their lives to the study of the Epistle to the Romans and who have written on it extensively, but most unfortunately those who are the most adamant about the correct interpretation of it are almost always those who have studied it the least with the littlest of care and who have, therefore, no concept whatsoever of how ridiculous and unfounded their interpretation is.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Craig where in the Bible does it say he DIDN'T make a way ? There is more in the Bible pointing to babies GOING to Heaven than Not.

    1) David said he would see his son again, obviously he meant Heaven.

    2) Jesus said hinder NOT the children they BELONG to me. He didn't say that about adults.

    3) We are born with a sinful CONDITION that can only be Changed by Gods spirit. And the ONLY way that is done is. Mark 3:28-29 Through accepting the gospel. Babies and mentally handicaped people CANNOT do that. So their sin is automatically forgiven.

    4) When the disobedient Hebrews refused to cross over into the holy land, a TYPE OF HEAVEN, God condemned them all to die, except: “Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it” Deuteronomy 1:39. So here God himself says that there is an age before a person has knowledge of right from wrong. This is the age of accountability. Quote from One Of His Sheep


    5)A loving God would NOT send innocent babies and retarded people to HELL !

    Sorry but you are in the minority AGAIN
     
  16. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    RightFromWrong wrote,

    No, there is not.

    No, David obviously meant the Jewish concept of the grave.

    No, Jesus did NOT say that!

    The Bible tells us what that CONDITION is—Adam’s original sin is imputed to us. You and Helen can deny this basic and fundamental Bible doctrine until you die, but your denial will NOT change what the Bible says,

    12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
    13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
    15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
    16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
    17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
    18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

    No, Mark 3:28 does NOT say anything even remotely like that,

    Mark 3:28. "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
    29. but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"-- (NASB, 1995)

    I agree that babies and mentally handicapped people CANNOT blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Babies and mentally handicapped people CANNOT blaspheme against the Holy Spirit—so their sin is automatically forgiven? What kind of nonsense is that? The Bible does NOT say that anyone’s sins are automatically forgiven.

    Dude! I should say, Dudette! Those Hebrew children crossed the Jordan River and eventually DIED over there. Why did they die over there? Not because of their actual sins on the other side, but because they sinned in Adam. Why am I having to argue against the teachings of Pelagius on a Baptist Message Board?

    Of course not! But they are NOT innocent—the sin of Adam has been imputed to them, and the proof of that is that they die. (You do know that babies sometimes die, don’t you?) Do you believe that a loving God would impose death, the ultimate penalty for sin, on innocent children? No, the babies and the retarded people are not innocent, and the proof of that from the Word of God is that God has imposed upon them the ultimate penalty of death.

    It seems quite clear to me that there are some Baptists who do not understand the sinfulness of Adam’s sin or the righteousness of God.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Think again! The view of Original Sin that I am defending is not only the view of the large majority of Christian theologians; it is also the view of the majority of Baptist theologians and pastors. The ONLY reason why I am in the minority in this thread is that I am defending the majority view and you are defending the minority view.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Yup, sure. God looks at a little newborn baby and says "Adam sinned thousands of years ago so you are guilty and deserve death."

    That is pure insanity.
     
  19. Craig you are WRONG in your stand that a Christian can lose their salvation, you are WRONG that babies go to hell. You are WRONG in your stand on baptism, what Born of water meant. And I'm sure if I really searched you would be WRONG about alot of things !

    You think you are so smart since you have studied MANS works, think you know the Greek language and such. But you are off on the BASIC FOUNDATIONS of truths of the Bible, that you are just OFF !

    [ September 12, 2005, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: RightFromWrong ]
     
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