AIDS and Romans 1:24-32

God's clever answer was here.

</font>[/QUOTE]You will note that nowhere in this passage does Jesus say he couldn't do it without me or you, or anyone for that matter. It is by his grace and mercy that we are called to be his servants.

Joseph Botwinick

 

That doesn't address my points in the least.

You are in effect saying that you can treat people any old way you want to, and if it turns them off to the message of salvation, it's their fault.

Show me this interesting theological insight in Scripture, please. </font>[/QUOTE]I have said no such thing. You either misunderstand or have purposely distorted my words. I merely am saying that:

1. God is sovereign. We need him. He does not need us.

2. God, through his grace and mercy, not out of necessity, has chosen me to be his servant and to proclaim salvation to the lost.

3. I cannot, as a human who is not sovereign, thwart the will of the sovereign God.

4. True Christians will be obedient to the will of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

You've merely restated what you said before, Joseph, which was that whatever we act like, God will save the people He wants to save. This is, as I understand Scripture, not a Biblical view of Christian witness.

I was not distorting your words, I was mirroring back what I understand your position to be. This position is not clarified by numerical listing.

 

You either misunderstood my words, or you are blatantly distorting what I said. I will not repeat the truth again. If you don't accept the truth, that is on you. I pray that God will open your eyes and help you to see the truth.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Are you speaking ex cathedra here? ;)

 

Our authority for teaching is the Word of God. Baptists have no pope and have no need of one. So no, I am not. I am clarifying the distortions of my statements.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Again, I do not see that I distorted your words, and invoking God as the justification for your words doesn't help clear up any misunderstanding I might have.

 

Then maybe you should be quoting the bible.

 

You did distort my words by adding your own subjective interpretation to what I said. I never once said that Christians can treat the lost in any manner they wish, and you know it. As a matter of fact, I said:

Just so there is no confusion, True Christians who are obedient to the will of God will not teach and live a life of hate and abuse. They will be people of the Word, who teach the Word of God, and live a life of love. At the same time, you also need to understand that God's will is not subject to our will. God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

Joseph Botwinick

 

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention.

 

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.

Joseph Botwinick

 

While that may be true, it isn't a justification for us to do nothing.

 

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]So we're back to "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, God will save them and if He doesn't it's their fault." Please, if this is a "distorion," tell me at ehat specific point I am "distorting."

We are specifically charged with the task of acting like Christ, loving like Christ, having families like the Church in order to bring people into the Kingdom.

Can you see how your position seems to be at odds with these Biblical facts?

 

Dragon,

I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

 

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ.

 

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]So we're back to "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, God will save them and if He doesn't it's their fault." Please, if this is a "distorion," tell me at ehat specific point I am "distorting."

We are specifically charged with the task of acting like Christ, loving like Christ, having families like the Church in order to bring people into the Kingdom.

Can you see how your position seems to be at odds with these Biblical facts? </font>[/QUOTE]My position does not in any way go against what the Bible teaches. On the one hand, true Christians will be obedient to the will of God which is for us to preach the Word and show the love of God to others. On the other hand, this is not because God needs us to do this, or can't accomplish his will without us, but because, in his grace and mercy, has chosen us to do so. Those who reject Christ, do so because of their hard hearts and their sins. They are resposible.

Joseph Botwinick

 

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]So we're back to "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, God will save them and if He doesn't it's their fault." Please, if this is a "distorion," tell me at ehat specific point I am "distorting."

We are specifically charged with the task of acting like Christ, loving like Christ, having families like the Church in order to bring people into the Kingdom.

Can you see how your position seems to be at odds with these Biblical facts? </font>[/QUOTE]My position does not in any way go against what the Bible teaches. On the one hand, true Christians will be obedient to the will of God which is for us to preach the Word and show the love of God to others. On the other hand, this is not because God needs us to do this, or can't accomplish his will without us, but because, in his grace and mercy, has chosen us to do so. Those who reject Christ, do so because of their hard hearts and their sins. They are resposible.</font>[/QUOTE]I cannot understand how they are responsible for our unfaithfulnerss.

 

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph Botwinick

 

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power. </font>[/QUOTE]"How will they hear without a preacher?"

 

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power. </font>[/QUOTE]"How will they hear without a preacher?" </font>[/QUOTE]

Romans 1:20

If we are in a situation like America where there are Bibles and Christians, God will provide a preacher, whether it be you or me or someone else. God will make a way.

Joseph Botwinick