Calvinism/DoG/Reformed:Emphasis; God's Grace. Salvation: By God's Grace.
Arminianism/Free-willers: Emphasis; Man's faith. Salvation: Saved by faith.*
* note that the second portion above does not reflect each and every Arminian, but reflects upon some in the BB, and upon others who say it is not Grace that saves.
So, are Calvinists/Reformed/DoG holders Amazed by Grace, and others Amazed by Faith?
If so, who is getting the Glory with these views? Or is it not about Gods Glory but about mans glory too?
i thank GOD that he allowed me to place faith in Jesus and become saved by His grace and mercy?
OR
thank God MY faith allowed/permitted Giod to save me?
Could you point us to one person here or any where who says "it is not Grace that saves?"
We believe as you do, that we are saved "by Grace through faith."
Even our ability to believe in Christ is graciously granted to us by our creator.
With all due respect, I say this is love and with gentleness, but once again I believe you are attacking a straw-man.
And note post #11, #15, #20, and many others in and against salvation by Grace (that I argued it is by Grace we are saved) and they rebutted ONLY by faith.
Actually, some here hold thast it IS by Grace,of God, but that grace is found in the Gospel itself, when one hears that preached, than we can freely accept/reject Jesus, no other Grace needed!
Per that viewpoint, God so honors our 'free will" that he allows us to be ultimate basis of getting saved, we need to "permit" God to be able to save us...
I believe if you look at the context of your discussion DHK explains you his view when you confront him with this charge.
You wrote: "Grace alone, champ. But you don't believe it was grace alone, correct?"
He replied: "The grace of Christ that provides salvation that must be accepted by faith alone."
So, clearly he affirms the need for grace and affirms the simple truth that we are saved by grace through faith.
The word "though" is inner changeable with the word "by" as both connote the means by which grace is applied.
Maybe that is what is causing your confusion?
JesusFan, you are as bad as P4T.
You have been told more times than I care to count how untrue this is.
PLEASE learn and quit smearing intentionally, as this is what it has become...intentional.
It is no longer a matter of ignorance but has become a smear campaign, and is dishonest.
No confusion here. I've looked at the context and was in the context myself. The debate was against the fact we are saved by grace. And he was not the only proponent against my statement that we are saved by grace.
I'm not sure what is causing your confusion when the whole entire thing began as a dismissal of "saved by grace" and turned into "we're saved by faith not grace." Note also #2, #15, #61, #62, #81.
pardon me, but don't you hold thast God will not violate free will of man, that He honors that so much that He allows us to permit or reject Him saving us?
I've read through the thread P4T and I don't know how to say it more clearly.
Here are direct quotes from the non-Cals in that thread:
"Of course, it is by grace through faith." - Gershom
"God's grace provided salvation through faith alone." -Gershom
"The grace of Christ that provides salvation that must be accepted by faith alone." - DHK
"Salvation is by Grace alone through faith alone + nothing." -Ben
"Justified by faith. Access by faith in Christ into this grace in which we stand." - Gershom
"God's grace provided salvation through faith in His Son." -Gershom
"God's grace provided me a way. That way is by faith in His Son. His grace stands whether or not I have faith in His Son." -Gershom
"So in summation, no, faith by itself does not save you. But, faith is the means by which grace travels. Without faith in God, there is no grace being applied to anyone. Will God save a true unbeliever? When one repents of their sins, they have to have faith in God. So, faith goes hand-in-hand with grace." -Convicted1
"Grace "and" faith "and" belief. Grace must be first, as it only due to God's Grace that salvation has been provided. But it must also be noticed that without all of the variables in place the statement would be incomplete and thus not true. Grace has been provided, which we all agree, thus it should be considered a mathematical constant."
"you are saved by grace through faith. Grace is always there. But salvation is dependent upon faith. No faith, no salvation." -Gershom
Need I go on?
Clearly they do not believe that one is saved apart from God's grace.
They are all correctly arguing that we are saved by God's grace alone through the means of faith alone.
You are the one arguing "either/or" while they are arguing "both/and" because that is what scripture teaches.
P4T, Even Calvinists affirm the necessity of faith for salvation and so should you.