America in Bible Prophecy

[FONT=&quot]I haven’t had any time but for peripheral attention here, but that has changed. Grasshopper wrote concerning my issue with the song of Moses: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Exactly what specific future perspective is the song of Moses referring to? The perspective is that of God’s and commences with finding Israel/Jacob in the wilderness, the time of the exodus (verse 10 and already past tense from Moses perspective here), and ends with the final destruction of their enemies and their ultimate restoration upon their land forever secure from those who God had used to chastise them (verses 36-43). The song of Moses is hardly from the perspective from the last days when it commences from the time of the exodus and ends with the consummation. Preston is up to his usual scriptural gymnastics and that is hardly sound hermeneutics. The specific verse in question, 35, is immediately followed by forecast the God will have compassion on Israel, specifically Jerusalem or Judah, at a future time when “their strength is gone and no one is left” and Isaiah prophecies of this specific event (this is prophetic eschatological intrusion).

“Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee…. Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.” Isa. 51:17:-23

We know the fall that is forecasted in the song of Moses pertains to what happened in Jerusalem or Judah by Paul’s expository in Romans 10 and 11 (Rom. 10:19).

Ironically Preston interprets Isaiah 51 as “projected imminence”, a transitory analysis the last days; such hyper-preterist gymnastics involves Jerusalem finding relief from their enemies at the very time that their judgment comes upon them at the hands of the Romans, at the very time their foot slides. This is a non sequitur as much of Postmillennium is; mere scriptural gymnastics to shore-up its faulty foundations. In truth the Jews have continued to be grafted in again since that time, which supports the inauguration or advancement of the kingdom that awaits its consummation or accomplishment only after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, when the Jew’s blindness ends, a protracted sense of “the last days”. Only after a protracted time, the last days, is the cup of God’s fury is taken from the Jews and given to them that have afflicted them. Preterism’s grasp of temporal indicators is completely untenable.

There are several texts that expound upon the last days in the NT; I’m going to analyze but one here.

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come…. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” 2 Tim. 3:1, 12,-13

There can be no doubt that Paul is addressing those in Christ, the church here and the era portrayed, the last days, is a protracted time, not just the event of the cross until 70 AD. The Postmillennialist and Reconstructionist paradigm that portrays this age as the consummated kingdom succeeding the parousia simply refuses to grasp the scriptural and temporal evidence that the consummated kingdom is one in which Christ sits upon his throne on this earth and establishes true a lasting peace, which certainly represents total security for the church/Israel, from those who would persecute them. Christ’s kingdom establishes true peace not the impostor that Supersessionism invents. Supersessionism or Postmillennialism hasn’t a leg to stand on here and that is why it took a huge nose dive in esteem and advocates commencing with the great wars of this century. Unfortunately it is rearing it head once again.

No to your response and my reiteration to “prophetic eschatological intrusion” of verse 36 in the song of Moses against the forecast of Judah’s rejection of the stone the builders rejected. We have the forecast of Judah’s fall and judgment and then the advancement of the kingdom in the protracted last days, which culminates in the consummation or accomplished kingdom at the end of the time of the Gentiles—and that era being forecasted way back in Genesis 17:4.

Michael[/FONT]

 

Obviously you didn’t grasp my meaning when I stated that those certain expositors made a mockery of preterism’s use of temporal indicators. In light of my expository of the song of Moses this still holds true even though they did drink from the fountain of covenant eschatology, of which I was well aware. Further evidence is in what they had to say on 2 Timothy 3 and Clarke’s comment on the temporal indicator in the Olivet Discourse.

 

In reference to my expository on Zephaniah 1:7 you wrote.

You’re sidestepping my thesis. Zephaniah announced the immanent “day of the Lord”, which even you had to acknowledge was fulfilled within a generation, and joined it without chronological distinction to distant eschatological events (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding without any chronological indication into an event that predates it by millenniums. If anyone is slicing and dicing that would be the one that doesn’t address the issue.

And we have the exact idiom used in the OT for a judgment in their time that is used in the NT for one that is future, which advocates the idiom has more than one use as type to an anagogical or eschatological event. And this is exactly the paradigm that Christ used in the Olivet Discourse. He pronounced the immanent judgment in 70 AD and without any chronological distinction jointed it with the distant eschatological consummation of the kingdom. Christ method is nothing more that that of the OT prophets and Preterism fails to grasp this.

As to Isaiah 13, what specifically do you want addressed? And if you can’t grasp the aforementioned you’re hardly going to reveal anything to me about Isaiah 13, but I’m always open to the light; bring it on.

 

Yeah, but then if there is no amount of time specified, then the natural assumption would be that this is a cloely occurring sequence of events. Entire centuries is way too far apart. The same people are not even involved in the events!

 

OK, interesting. So it's a multiple fulfillment. IIRC, SDA's taught that the Dark Ages persecution was the Great Tribulation (6th Seal), and that the only thing left to happen in our future was the rise of the last head or horn of the beast and the return of Christ. I imagine they did also say there would be more persecution, especially since Sabbath/Sunday is made to become the issue Christians are supposedly percecuted over (Mark of the Beast).

 

Wonder how the Bible will be interpreted in 4012AD or 40012AD if Jesus doesn't show?

 

Exactly right. The prophecy in the NT was written by and in many cases to Jews, thus we shouldn't be surprised by the revelation that the style used was that of the OT prophecy. The failure by many to grasp this has lead to many errors, not the least of which is preterism.

 

Yeah, but that brings us to another point. The SDA's, i believe, ae the ones who led the rigid "6000 year" idea, and add in the typical dates, Creation: 4004BC; Christ= 4BC, then the 6000th year was 1997, which is more then 7 years ago, and neither the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, nor the return of christ has occurred yet. So then, we must begin shifting the dates, so maybe the Creation was after 4004BC. How much more after? Centuries? Now, you're changing your "young earth" to be even younger! The next thing will be, maybe it's not exactly 6000 years. Or eventually, you'll have to go with the 10.000 year theory like most of the rest of the YEC's.
Or just to do 1844 all over again, and say Christ is really doing something in Heaven again.
So if they were so sure, but wrong back then (approaching two centuries ago already), that can happen again, so then the question of what they will be teaching in 4012 does make sense.