1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured American revivalism and Teetotalism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by evangelist6589, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I just learned something I did not know from a Reformed Baptist friend. Teetotalism is a recent position coming from the 19th century and a product of American revivalism just like the altar call. True or false? I am no historian so I wonder what book he got this fact from.

    I usually do not buy print books but I just got Drinking with Calvin and Luther brand new for $20. This book is out of print so I got a steal.
     
    #1 evangelist6589, Mar 9, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,796
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is that the book with the forward by Sproul Jr.?
     
  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,796
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does your Reformed Baptist friend have a Bible?

    From Jeremiah chapter 35
     
  4. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No clue
     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,796
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here you go, from last December:

    http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/reli...ion-advocate-r-c-sproul-arrested-for-dui.html
     
  6. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh for the love of the gremlin!

    I just ordered the book "The Christian and drinking" using the scripture to defend total absence from alcohol. I will give the other side a fair read.
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know there is a joke in here somewhere...


    Sent from my Moto Droid Turbo.
     
  9. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This thread has gone off topic. It's about the history of the teetotalist movement.
     
  10. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    4,320
    Likes Received:
    1,242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, what about verse 9? Am I also not supposed to build a house, and to live in a tent? That was a part of their father's command also, so why leave it out?
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I've not studied the connections between "teetotalism" and revivalism, so I can't really speak to that. But here are two factors to consider:

    In reading old church records in the 1800s, to me the push seems to be against drunkenness and excess rather than for total abstinence. In a book that Jerome linked in another thread, I noticed a reference to a Baptist preacher changing his views on intoxicating drink. Click HERE.

    The other is that the views of my Primitive Baptist friends on liquor are like what you see in some of the older church records -- against drunkenness and excess but not against drinking -- not teetotalism. Historically they were not much affected by American revivalism.

    I don't think there should be much doubt that the position of Baptists in the U.S. on drinking/drunkenness was influenced by the Temperance Movement. I guess the argument is very one thinks it was a good or bad thing.

    Interesting fact: Texas Southern Baptist leader J.B.B. Cranfill once ran as the Vice-Presidential candidate of the Prohibition Party (1892).
     
    #11 rlvaughn, Mar 9, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Revivalism (particular in its Holiness phase) was an influence, but hardly the only one.

    Temperance began as a middle-class movement among the new middle class, that is, primarily among the entrepreneurs and commercial classes. A drunken farmer behind a plow may be a pitiable sight, but there's a limit to the damage he can do (usually). A drunken mill worker or an inebriated clerk can make mistakes that can cost lives, reduce productivity and make bookkeeping errors that can sink a business.

    The rise of the middle class in the Victorian era — on both sides of the Atlantic — increased demands for temperance, and it was only a matter of time that temperance became prohibition. And, yes, temperance societies adopted the methods of the revivalists: religious ardour and public spectacle.

    And anti-foreign sentiment also played a part. Alcoholism came to be considered a particular vice of the big cities and, you guessed it, the Irish in particular. Something had to be done to civilize the Irish, and cutting off their alcohol was a good start. Prohibition became a stamp of "true" Protestantism, as opposed to the habits of the degenerate papists.

    Add to that the industrialization of alcohol in the late 19th century. Alcohol was once an expensive commodity, but industrialization made it cheap and more accessible. Not only that, giant beer brewers (making use of new-fangled refrigeration) flooded the cities with cheap beer served at their own bars. That created an explosion of taverns in the large cities as the brewers jostled for market share. They were everywhere.

    It was not for nothing that Presbyterian minister Samuel Burchard described the Democratic Party as the party of “rum, Romanism, and rebellion,” which ended up costing H.G. Blaine the presidential election in 1884.

    Some ramblings that may or may not be worth considering.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Billy Sunday made a ministry out of attacking the liquor industry, as did J. Frank Norris.
     
  14. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Would this explain the push towards teetotalism these days by most Baptists?
     
  15. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How do you know so much? A very helpful post.
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As Billy Sunday was a Presbyterian, and most Baptists thought Norris was nuts, probably not. :)
     
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When Baptists were moving west and south in the early 19th century, it was common (and an economic necessity) to convert grain into alcohol. Many Baptists were involved in the Whiskey Rebellion because they were accustomed to bartering whiskey for other goods and had no cash to pay the taxes.

    There are records of Baptist associational meetings being disturbed by too many draws at the keg. And while prohibitionism made great strides among Baptists after the Civil War, there were dissenters.

    "In February 1887 the Tennessee Temperance Alliance held a convention in Nashville to organize county committees statewide to generate public support for the amendment when presented to the voters for the final referendum. Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches participated in the campaign. In Morgan County, for example, Reverend A. B. Wright, a circuit rider in the Upper Cumberland region, served as chairman. For two weeks, he made speeches in favor of the prohibition amendment to groups assembled in schoolhouses and churches. When he arrived at an engagement scheduled at the Baptist Church in Sunbright, he discovered the preacher and his father had 'locked us out,' and he was forced to speak at a nearby building."
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Many factors lead to the popular adoption of the total abstinence position.
    • Alcohol was the crack cocaine of the Victorian and Edwardian periods.
    • Women and children didn't have the legal protections from drunkard spouses and fathers they have today.
    • The anti-foreigner sentiment was directed not only at the "whiskey drinking" Irish but also at the "beer drinking" Germans (many from Catholic Bavaria) and the "wine drinking" Italians and Jews.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,851
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would agree with that. I should have mentioned the Germans (who created the national beer industry) but I excluded the Italians (and the Slavs and Jews) because they largely came after the Temperance movement was already in full swing. However, they probably played a role in the final "victory" of Prohibition, so I should have included them. Just trying to not overreach.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In church history I discovered that the major progressive movements in America have been led by the church in some way through to Civil Rights in the 50s and 60s.

    From the top of my head, as I had a hard time finding this stuff on Wikipedia, it all started with the abolitionists who advocated an end to slavery. They were a minority voice in the church at first, but gained power over decades leading up to the Civil War. The abolitionists believed in a set of issues in fact that included women's rights and prohibition form the very beginning though.

    When slavery ended, Christian social reformers next tackled giving black men basic rights. Then came women's suffrage. Then came Temperance and the constitutional amendment that ended the sale of alcohol, Prohibition. Christian progressivism was dealt a serious blow when prohibition ended. However, later Martin Luther King Jr. assembled another primarily church-led progressive movement to end segregation and advocate civil rights for people of color.

    Now I must state that I have an issue with all of this. Namely that these movements seem to rely more on a social gospel than evangelism. I also do not know if these social reform movements led by the church are tied to revivalism. Probably the best evidence for it being part of revivalism though, may be looking at the Salvation Army's creation in England. I also have a serious issue with these progressive movements in terms of theology. Teetotalism on all things that can ensnare into sin if given into in excess is not found in the bible. Instead we find self-control and a kind of liberty for the Believer as long as they conform to Acts 15:23-29 . In addition, the women's suffrage movement did some terrible things such as liberalize all U.S. divorce laws, ending any idea of covenant marriage legally, and advocated an idea of a feminist approach to the bible that is simply put a doctrine of demons to me.

    To be genuinely super-radical though I will also proffer that perhaps even slavery in a form advocated by Philemon is in fact biblical. Of course, the American South failed to enact Philemon though. In fact, I can even go so far as the American Founding: where in the bible do we find human rights other than things regarding genuine fair play such as providing a workman his wage?
     
Loading...