Amillennialism Debate - Part Four

Mr. Ed

1.There is no such doctrine as a post tribulation rapture amillennialism. That comes close to historic premillennialism but doesn't quite fit.

2. If you wish to know what the preterist doctrine of the millennium is then you need to distinguish between full preterists and partial preterists.

3. There is no such doctrine in the Christian faith as mystic amillennialism. If you care to explain your invention of such I am all ears.

I summarized the generally accepted tenents af amillennialism on an the 3rd amillennial thread. If you want more detail I suggest you read The Bible and the Future by Andrew Hoekema, Revelation, Three Viewpoints by Beasley, Hobbs, and Robbins, and The meaning of the Millennium, Four Views edited by Robert Clouse. You might even learn some facts about Dispensationalism from the last book.
.

 

Bob clarifies - Is there any debate on whether amill is the "theology" of Roman Catholicism? Is there any debate on whether amill is the "theology" of almost all cults [LDS, JW I know for sure; SDA would not]?

If there IS debate, now is the time. Old Reg, everyone knows my position on amill. I'm just saying that when Catholic/Cult support a doctrine, I usually run the other way!! </font>[/QUOTE]Following is the doctrine of the LDS or Mormons regarding eschatology. The readers can judge for themselves if it is similar to amillennial doctrine.

From The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin, revised by Hank Hanegraff

Mormon Eschatology, page 240.

Believing as they do in the literal second advent of Christ, the Mormons teach that at His return the Jews will have been gathered to Palestine, the Mormons will be miraculously gathered together in Missouri, and the judgment of the Lord will be poured out upon the earth everywhere except on old and new Jerusalem. [See Doctrine and Covenants, 29:9-11.]

The Mormons also have something in common with the cult of Anglo-Israel believing as well in the restoration of the ten lost tnhes. The difference is that the Anglo-Israelites believe that the ten lost tribes are the English people whereas the'Mormons believe the ten lost tribes are somewhere in what Mormons call the "north country." In the words of Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, "In due course the one who holds the keys shall direct the return of the ten tribes from the land of the north. With 'their rich treasures they shall come to their American Zion to 'be crowned with glory by the ch[Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:26. The Doctrine and Covenants, 110:11, states that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were given those keys by which to lead them.

Mormons also believe in the bodily resurrection of all men and in salvation in a three-fold heaven. In Mormon theology, there are three heavens: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial. McConkie states that "most adults will go to the telestial kingdom and that it is composed of "the endless hosts of people of all ages who have lived after the manner of the world; who have been carnal, sensual and devilish; who have chosen the vain philosophies of the world rather than accept the testimony of Jesus; who have been liars and thieves,sorcerers and adulterers, blasphemers and murders" [Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 778]. The second kingdom [the terrestrial] will be inhabited by Christians who did not accept the Mormon message, Mormons who did not live up to their church’s requirements, and men of good will of other religions who rejected the revelatons of the Latter-day Saints [Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 784]. The highest or celestial heaven is itself divided into three levels. Only in this highest level is godhood or the possession of a kingdom for one's self and one’s family to be gained. This particular estate has as its prerequisite the candidate’s having been sealed by celestial marriage in a Mormon temple while upon the earth. Even in the celestial kingdom, godhood is by slow progression, and in the end each who becomes a god will, with his family, rule and populate a separate planet of hisg own.

It is almost superfluous to comment that this entire scheme of the consumrnation of Mormon salvation is the antithesis of the biblical revelation, which knows nothing of godhood, either constituted or progressive, and which teaches instead that in heaven the destiny of the redeemed will be the special providence of God himself, which "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and which has "never entered into the mind of men" for these are "the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him" [I Corinthians 2:9]. God has revealed many of these things to us by His Spirit; but as Paul so eloquently puts it, we seeggg through a glass, darkly; but then face to face" [1 Corinthians 13:12, emphasis added]

 

Bob clarifies - Is there any debate on whether amill is the "theology" of Roman Catholicism? Is there any debate on whether amill is the "theology" of almost all cults [LDS, JW I know for sure; SDA would not]?

If there IS debate, now is the time. Old Reg, everyone knows my position on amill. I'm just saying that when Catholic/Cult support a doctrine, I usually run the other way!! </font>[/QUOTE]Following is the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses regarding eschatology. The readers can judge for themselves the similarities to amillennialism.

From CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY;  www.carm.org; HOME PAGE    

Jehovah's Witnesses in a Nutshell

In the late 1800's, a young man of 18 years, by the name of Charles Taze Russell, organized a Bible class in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.  In 1879 he sought to popularize his ideas on doctrine so he co-published The Herald of the Morning magazine with its founder, N. H. Barbour and by 1884 Russell controlled the publication and renamed it The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom, and founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society (now known as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society).  Russell served as the teacher and guide for the organization which taught that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is now reigning in heaven.  When Jesus finally returns physical to earth, which will happen at the time of the Battle of Armageddon, He will set up his earthly 1000 year kingdom.  During this 1000 year period, people will be resurrected and have a second chance to receive eternal salvation by following the principles of Jehovah's Organization on earth known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.  After the millennium, those who reject God and His organization will be annihilated; that is, they will cease to exist.  The rest of the Jehovah's Witness who have faithfully followed God's organization on earth will be saved from eternal annihilation and reside forever on Paradise earth.  Heaven, however, is a place for a special group of 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses -- the only ones who are "born again" and who alone are allowed to take communion in their annual communion service.  These are the ones who have "immortal life,"  all other Witnesses have "everlasting life."  Those with immortal life do not have resurrected bodies.  They have "spirit bodies."  Those on Paradise Earth have everlasting life and consists of a resurrected body that must be maintained through eating, rest, etc.

 

Bob clarifies - Is there any debate on whether amill is the "theology" of Roman Catholicism? Is there any debate on whether amill is the "theology" of almost all cults [LDS, JW I know for sure; SDA would not]?

If there IS debate, now is the time. Old Reg, everyone knows my position on amill. I'm just saying that when Catholic/Cult support a doctrine, I usually run the other way!! </font>[/QUOTE]Following is the doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventists regarding eschatology. The readers can judge for themselves any similarities to amillennialism.

Friom The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin, revised by Hank Hanegraff

The Puzzle of the Seventh Day Adventists, page 537.

V. The Second Coming

1. [Jesus Christ] will return in a premillennial, personal, imminent second advent

2. As our denominational name indicates, the second coming of Christ is one of the cardinal doctrines of the Adventist faith. We give it such prominence in our beliefs because it occupies a pivotal place in Holy Scripture, not only in the New Testament, but also in the Old .

3. Jesus will assuredly come the second lime. . . . [His] second advent will be visible, audible, and personal. . . . Seventh-day Advenlists believe on the evidence of Scripture that there will be one visible, personal, glorious second coming of Christ

 

Hey, everybody. . . look closer at Ed's picture, he can't be a day over 45.

Believe this "wisdom" business at your own peril. (although, he is right about pre-mil) :D

 

Hey, everybody. . . look closer at Ed's picture, he can't be a day over 45.

Believe this "wisdom" business at your own peril. (although, he is right about pre-mil) :D
</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you brohter Phillip. Your check is in the mail.

Wow, Brother OldRegular, i wish i was a professional back
and had you on my offenive line. You have holes in what you know
that a half-back could walk to the goal through

OldRegular: "1.There is no such doctrine as a post tribulation rapture amillennialism. That comes close to historic premillennialism but doesn't quite fit."

Brother DeafPosttrib (DPT) teaches that doctrine right here on
Baptist board.

OldRegular: "2. If you wish to know what the preterist doctrine of the millennium is then you need to distinguish between full preterists and partial preterists.

OK. I would hear more. Thank you.

OldRegular: "3. There is no such doctrine in the Christian faith as mystic amillennialism. If you care to explain your invention of such I am all ears.

http://p197.ezboard.com/fchristiancounterpointfrm7
Q.E.D.

OldRegular: "I summarized the generally accepted tenents af amillennialism on an the 3rd amillennial thread."

I'm lazy. I want a hot link. Thank you.

BTW, I really don't care to read what other people said. I want to know
that OldRegular and other poster here have to say. I know i write
original essays (some are too original ;) )

 

Your above post is contradictory. You post a web site so I can read what other people say.

Yet you tell me you don't want to read what other people say.

I refer you to a post where I have my say and you ask for a link. :confused:

 

Posted by OldRegular:

"I summarized the generally accepted tenents af amillennialism on an the 3rd amillennial thread."

Brother, can you re-state the position please. I've really been (honestly) trying to follow the threads, but with all the various side trips down various "goat paths" (meandering, twisting, etc.).......

I'm confused....


:confused: :confused:

 

Sorry, your arguments are petty.
It is a very minor point of my that there is a branch of
a-mill that is 'mystic a-mill'.

You said: "There is no such doctrine in the Christian faith as mystic amillennialism. If you care to explain your invention of such I am all ears."

Well, i didn't make it up. If you want to find out about it
(and i hope you don't) then you have the link.

I wasted five years of my time talking to Mystic Christians who
tend to spiritualize everything (they think) and who
are really saying: "Ed that is too spiritual for you, we are
better than you."

You are making major points of your argument from copies of
the works of others. I don't want to have a conversation with
carm.org or Hank Hanegraff (at least that is better than
David Cloud on Versions ;) )

So those simpler than Brother OldRegular can understand:
OldRegular had three major copies of stuff in his last
four posts. Ed had one link in five posts (no quoted comments).

 

Amen, Brother mcgyver -- Preach it!

I looked at one page of the 3rd thread. It
was page 5. It was to depressing to read.
Which page was it on?

 

In trying to sort out this amillennialism belief with the preterist, pre-mil, a-mil, blah blah blah. I opened a thread JUST to explain the beliefs and NOT to waste time defending them.

Would any of you who believe a certain way please go there, read it and post your belief. I do NOT need justification, JUST the belief.

Maybe we can use this to understand some of the differences.

It is "END OF THE WORD" --something-- can't remember, now I'm blank.

See, I told you this was confusing.

Seriously, go there and post your belief to the best of your knowledge. Simply time lines and what has, is and is going to happen according to that belief.

THX

 

Here, have a hot link:

END OF THE WORLD question

 

I looked on page one.
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2788.html
I was chided there for spelling out
'montra' which should be 'mantra'.
I saw a plea for a description of the
a-mill position. I saw no declination of
an a-mill position.

 

Amillennialism

Those people who hold the amillennial doctrine believe in a general or universal resurrection [that is a resurrection of all the dead at the ‘second coming’ of Jesus Christ] followed by the general, ‘the Great White Throne’ judgment [Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 25:31-46]. A number of writers have noted that the term amillennialism does not accurately portray amillennial doctrine but implies that amillennialists do not believe in a millennium or ignore the first six verses of Revelation 20, neither of which is true. However, no one has suggested a more appropriate name that has received wide acceptance.

Perhaps the most significant passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Other Scripture which teach a general resurrection and judgment are:

Acts 24:14,15, KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

It follows, therefore, that amillennialists do not believe that Jesus Christ reigns from an earthly throne for a period of one thousand years. Rather amillennialists in general believe that the deceased Saints [those who have part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ] are now reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven. Some amillennialists believe that the “millennial” reign refers to the influence of the Church in the world. This period [the millennium of Revelation 20, a definite but unrevealed period of time] extends from the ascension of Jesus Christ until His return, His Second Coming, in power and glory. Amillennialists in general recognize that the Church on earth has and will always undergo tribulation, as Jesus Christ promised:

John 16:33, KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Some amillennialists believe that this tribulation will increase in intensity as the return of Jesus Christ approaches [Matthew 24]. Amillennialist believe that the Church is present during this period. To bring this tribulation to an end Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints. Many who hold the amillennialist view also believe that there will be a large scale conversion of the Jews prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

The glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ will be accompanied by the trumpet of God and the shout of the archangel [Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; and Revelation 11:15-18]. At this time the dead in Christ will be resurrected [rise first], the living believers will be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and both groups will meet Jesus Christ in the air [where the resurrected bodies will reunite with their souls] and accompany Him to the earth. There will be a resurrection of those who died without Jesus Christ as Saviour, followed by the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15]. Satan, whose power has been limited by the victory of Jesus Christ over death [Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8, Matthew 12:28-29], and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire. [The chaining of Satan in Revelation 20 is a symbolic representation of this limitation on the power of Satan.] The new heaven and new earth will be created wherein dwelleth righteousness [2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:1]. There are many expositors who believe that rather than a completely new creation the heavens and earth will be restored to the purity with which they were originally created [See The Bible and the Future by Andrew Hoekema, Chapter 20]. This new creation and the life of the redeemed with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are gloriously described in Revelation 21-22.

The sound of the last trumpet accompanies the return of Jesus Christ in those passages ascribed by the dispensationalist to the ‘secret rapture’ of the church and also to passages that they agree describe His coming in power and glory. Obviously the last trumpet cannot sound at two different times.

Amillennialists in general believe that the Old Testament promises not fulfilled in the Church will be fulfilled in the new heaven and new earth. Hoekema discusses the implications of this belief in The Bible and the Future. It must be noted at this time that reference to the one thousand year period occurs only in Revelation 20. The glorious kingdom promised by God to His people in the Old Testament was to last forever, not one thousand years.

In Revelation 1:7, we have the promise of the return of Our Saviour, Behold, he cometh with clouds. In his discussion of this passage Philip Edgecumbe Hughes in his commentary The Book of Revelation writes [pages 20,21]:

“The Clouds intended here are not the dark storm clouds which presage divine judgment ..... but the bright clouds of His transcendental glory. They stand for the shekinah glory of God’s presence which caused the face of Moses to shine .....; and they are to be identified with the ‘bright cloud’ of Christ’s divine glory ..... on the mount of transfiguration and with the clouds which received Him ..... at his ascension. This association of the clouds of Christ’s coming with His glory is plainly made in Matthew 24:30, where He declares that all the tribes of the earth ..... shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Notice that in Revelation 1: 7 John also asserts unequivocally that the return of Jesus Christ will be visible, every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Although the Greek word translated ‘every’ does not necessarily mean the totality of mankind, I believe that is exactly what will happen. When Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to claim His Bride, the Church, and to judge the world I believe the resurrection of all the dead shall occur, every eye shall behold Him, and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, all mankind bears accountability for the death of Jesus Christ. We who are saved, who have accepted that sacrificial death as atonement for our sins will rejoice at the sight of Him; we shall see Him in His glory, as He is, and be satisfied; we shall be filled with joy unspeakable and full of glory in His presence forevermore. However, those who pierced Him, who treated with contempt His sacrificial death, shall wail and cry to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. [Revelation 6:16, KJV].

I have attemped in the above paragraphs to present my understanding of amillennialism. There will obviously be some amillennialists who differ in certain aspects.

 

Thank you sir, for your response.....

Although not necessarily in agreement, I appreciate you stating the a-mil position.

 

OldRegular,

What do you mean by this, I didn't understand which OT verses you were referring to that were not fulfilled in the OT.

I thought it was very well defined and seems to be much simpler than pre-mil or dispensationalism of which I find somewhat confusing. I looked up the verses you used and they do seem quite supportive of what you say. I'm exploring all possibilities at the time so this is good for me.

 

I thought it was very well defined and seems to be much simpler than pre-mil or dispensationalism of which I find somewhat confusing. I looked up the verses you used and they do seem quite supportive of what you say. I'm exploring all possibilities at the time so this is good for me. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps the best example of promises made in the Old Testament that were not fulfilled were those made to Abraham regarding the land of Caanan [Genesis 17:8]. Though the natural seed of Abraham did posess the land as shown in Joshua 21:43-45, 1 Kings 8:56, and Nehemiah 9:8, 22-26, Abraham did not . In Hebrews 11:8-16 tells us that Abraham:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The promise to Abraham will be fulfilled in the New Heavens and New Earth. Galatians 3:29 states that And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. True believers are then heirs to all the promises made to Abraham which were not fulfilled in the Old Testament.

I also believe that many of the promises made to God's people in the Old Testament [By God's people I mean true or spiritual Israel, the Church in the wilderness [Acts 7:38].] were spiritual in nature and are being fulfilled in the Church.

 

Old Regular,

So how does the destruction of Jerusalem fit into Amillenium doctrine? Do you see that in Matthew 24 as being fullfilled at that time?

 

OldRegular: "Those people who hold the amillennial doctrine believe in a general or universal resurrection [that is a resurrection of all the dead at the ‘second coming’ of Jesus Christ] followed by the general, ‘the Great White Throne’ judgment [Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 25:31-46]. A number of writers have noted that the term amillennialism does not accurately portray amillennial doctrine but implies that amillennialists do not believe in a millennium or ignore the first six verses of Revelation 20, neither of which is true."

Thank you for sharing this again. I was having trouble finding it.
I'm not a-mill but when i teach about a-mill to my pretribualtion
pre-millinnial friends, i mention that a-mills believe in other than
a physical millinnial reign of Christ ON THE EARTH.