An observation regarding Passion critics....

[just-want-peace]

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Mat 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

2. Satan appears in Gethsemane, whereas Bible says an angel appeared to comfort Jesus.

Up front let me say that I have not seen, nor do I plan to see, this movie. My reasons have nothing to do with the condemnations I've seen here.(See http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/3674/2.html? 5th post from the top if you're interested in my reasons.)

My criticism of the criticisms of this movie are based on what I've seen here; NOT the movie itself.

The above quote is one example of "if it ain't in the Bible it's wrong" mindset that I question. The quoted scriptures show the mental/spiritual/emotional state of Jesus in the garden. While we aren't told that satan was there, does it seem so impossible that he would NOT be there to attempt to sway Christ from His mission? Would it not be NORMAL for satan to attack at a supposedly vulnerable point and time.

No, I have no proof that satan was there, but do you deem it impossible just because we aren't told? This is not some extra-biblical DOCTRINE that is being pushed; it's simply a detail that may or may not be true, but it changes nothing either way regardless of what you believe.

As I said before, "it ain't in the bible" can be mis-used just as well as quoting out of context, and the best that can be said for the practice is that it muddies the waters of truth.

 

[computerjunkie]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vaspers:
...I have never attacked anyone who loves and raves about this film. I just state what I believe to be inaccurate and offensive in it.

Shall I find and requote what you said about your pastor?

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]Diane...with all due respect, and with a great deal of Christian love toward you (and others) as YSIC, could you (and others) PLEASE stop referring to what vaspers said about his pastor? You (and others) have mentioned it on at least 4 different threads, and it serves no purpose.

Vaspers is just as passionately OPPOSED to the movie as you (and others) are FOR the movie. In the heat of discussion, he DID say something about his pastor that maybe should not have been said, but as near as I can tell, he biblically discussed it with the deacons in his church and he no longer attends that church. He has explained it several times, and I think it's time to move past this particular issue.

Can we not forgive others just as Christ forgave us? After all, isn't that what this movie is about?

Just my thoughts. Now back to lurking...

Love in Christ,
CJ

 

[Spirit and Truth]

SBC:

Just to satisfy your request -- I remember nothing in Jesus' dialogue with Pilate & Pilate's dialogue with the crowd in John 18-19 that is omitted, but again, this is not the issue for the critics. This issue is what is added.


S&T:

Let's look at something that was omitted in the scene where Pilate washes his hands:

Matthew 27
24 And seeing that nothing is gained, but rather an uproar occurs, taking water, Pilate washed his hands before the crowd, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous one; you will see.


They did not call Him the "righteous one" as it is written in scripture in this account. I believe the actor playing Pilate called Him man, and did not say "you will see".

When this DVD is released, and people get a chance to review this movie at home and compare it to their Bibles, boy are they gonna feel silly about their comments on the movie being scripturally accurate.

 

[vaspers]

computerjunkie: thanks for saying what you said about moving past the comments I made about my former pastor.

I do regret dragging a very personal and difficult to understand situation up onto this Baptist Board, not because I made false accusations, but because I should have dealt with the situation privately, not publicly.

My posting on that weird issue was due to my feeling that the Baptist Board family is a genuine Christian fellowship online, and I have expressed lots of personal thoughts, beliefs, opinions, and attitudes.

Posters have seen me at my best...and my worst. Yet I know I would fight to the death for every beloved saint on this BB, no matter what their opinion is about The Passion or any other side issue. Jesus died for all of us, and we have all accepted His gift of salvation by grace thru faith. Praise God the Most High.

 

[All about Grace]

Matthew 27

Matthew 27 is not in John 18-19.

Using your logic, if I ever provide even a mental picture or description of the Crucifixion and do not include every detail from every gospel, I have erred.

 

[Pastor Larry]

For an excellent presentation of reasons to be concerned, go to this link, and listen to the Feb 25 message. It is a well balanced presentation that tries to seperate the legitimate from the illegitimate.

http://mountcalvarybaptist.org/recent.aspx

 

[Elijah]

I have not yet seen the movie, but do intend to. However I do own a retail business in which I am blessed to deal with many local churches. The unanimous opinion so far is that those who have seen the movie have gained a greater appreciation for what Jesus endured for all of us. It is my understanding that this was MR. Gibsons intention with the film. I hope that one positive effect of the huge success of this movie is that it will make some of the hollywood producers take note that there is a large part of America that would rather see a movie about Jesus, than the same old sex, and senseless violence. (I know, the passion is violent, but thats different) My hope is that a lot of good will come of this movie.

 

[vaspers]

I predict, and you can hold me accountable for this prediction, that there will very soon be a "Christian" or "Biblical" movie released...

...that will have both gratuitous violence, and pornographic or at least juicy, R rated sex scenes in it.

And the vast majority of evangelicals and liturgicals and church goers will support it and say, "Yes, it did have sexual content, but that's okay, because the film made me appreciate [David & Bathsheba, or Solomon & Concubines, etc., etc., etc.] much more than I ever did before. And it's biblically accurate. And that is what really happened. And the Bible account is too sanitized, due to our exaggerated modesty and uptight attitudes about sex, which is a beautiful thing."

Behold: it is coming on the wings of eagles, with the head of a lion, and the feet of a bear.

 

[Spirit and Truth]

SBC:


Matthew 27 is not in John 18-19.

Using your logic, if I ever provide even a mental picture or description of the Crucifixion and do not include every detail from every gospel, I have erred.

S&T:

In the movie, did they not play out the hand washing scene, and is this scripture not fundamental to that scene? What Mr Gibson has done, line by line, is effectively try to change the Word of God, while touting his movie as being true to the Gospels. Anyone who actually reads their bible can see that this is a false statement. How about the scene where the "good thief" who is now named Dismas [not in scripture] says "I Dismas am guilty" and making this appear to be scripture by mixing his statement with part of the biblical account. This is changing God's Word, and if people can't see this, especially Baptists who at one time knew the Word, we are in real bad shape as "the church". I am so glad that Mel had the "mystics" to consult to find out the parts that God forgot to tell us in HIs Word that, BTW, forbids mysticism. Maybe I need to turn over a new leaf....heck...why don't I just start studying my "Message" Bible, and watch the Passion DVD everyday until I "get it"............Oh maaaaaaannnn.

I can hear the sounds of knives being sharpened in the distance as they prepare to lead the "sheep" to the slaughter. Baptist "leadership" should be ashamed of their ecumenical selves. God warned us that wolves will creep in and try to devour the flock, and He also warns the "shepards" that He will take the sheep from them because they have done such a poor job protecting them. Hopefully this is such a time.

 

[vaspers]

S & T: good, soundly presented points, as usual.

The "dumbing down" of the evangelical church has not totally succeeded.

What is "Berean" church? I know the reference in Acts, which I wish more Christians would look up and pay attention to.

Apostle Paul had this to say about Mel and his ilk: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." GALATIANS 1:8.

The Passion is indeed "another gospel"--you cannot watch this film, then read the real Biblical gospels, and say "they are identical."

Most other Jesus gospel films I have seen stick to the Bible text very closely, and if anything is added to "fill in the gaps" or whatever, they generally do not depart wildly from established Christian doctrine.

The Passion departs wildly from established Christian doctrine. Masochistic pain addict A.C. Emmerich's mentally ill visions and self-abuse in the name of "atoning" for the sins of her friends...to use this as a source to add into the story of our Saviour--that's "another gospel"--the gospel of A.C. Emmerich, who was insane and evil.

 

[Elijah]

Not trying to debate the issue, I know how some of you feel, just sharing the feedback I have recieved.
Read an interesting article the other day, online from an Israeli newspaper. There was an interview with an orthodox Jew Rabbi who said that his biggest concern over the movie was not that it may cause people to hate Jews, but that it may cause orthodox Jews to convert to Christianity. I SURE HOPE HE'S RIGHT.

 

[Elijah]

Originally posted by vaspers:
S & T: good, soundly presented points, as usual.

The "dumbing down" of the evangelical church has not totally succeeded.

So if a person dares to support this movie there dumbed down? Must you resort to personally attacking others who dont share your view?

 

[vaspers]

By "dumbing down" I mean how many church goers are easily led into dubious paths and products by clever marketers, celebrities, and church leaders.

And how so few seem to express real deep concern for Biblical accuracy and fidelity to the text of the Word of God.

The new "dumbed down" standard: if all the church leaders praise it, if it made me feel good or weeep into my popcorn, if it increased numbers for a mega-church potential, if it is on the New York Times bestseller list, if the secular world is pleased and not offended by it, etc.

Yes, Western Christianity is being "dumbed down" at an alarming rate. Not everyone who praises a film I am opposed to is "dumb"--but to judge a spiritual product by anything other than strict adherence to God's holy Word, that is "not smart."

Third World, Chinese, South American, African Christianity is the New Wave.

God has pretty much departed from the USA.

We got rid of prayer and 10 Commandments and sanctity of marriage and God said, "I get the message. See you folks later. I'm outta here. I got better things to do than watch you disgrace Me."

 

[Elijah]

Originally posted by vaspers:
By "dumbing down" I mean how many church goers are easily led into dubious paths and products by clever marketers, celebrities, and church leaders.

And how so few seem to express real deep concern for Biblical accuracy and fidelity to the text of the Word of God.

The new "dumbed down" standard: if all the church leaders praise it, if it made me feel good or weeep into my popcorn, if it increased numbers for a mega-church potential, if it is on the New York Times bestseller list, if the secular world is pleased and not offended by it, etc.

Yes, Western Christianity is being "dumbed down" at an alarming rate. Not everyone who praises a film I am opposed to is "dumb"--but to judge a spiritual product by anything other than strict adherence to God's holy Word, that is "not smart."

Third World, Chinese, South American, African Christianity is the New Wave.

God has pretty much departed from the USA.

We got rid of prayer and 10 Commandments and sanctity of marriage and God said, "I get the message. See you folks later. I'm outta here. I got better things to do than watch you disgrace Me."

Sorry vaspers, but God did not leave us. And as long as there are born again believers in this country He will not, no matter what our politicians do. We just have to be carefull that we ourselves do not support such things as homosexual marriage, abortion etc.

 

[All about Grace]

I will simply add at this point that the further this discussion progresses (or perhaps digresses) the more I stand by the original thesis: the most vocal critics are those on the far right or far left. Whether one defines themselves as far right or not is irrelevant. A tree is known by its fruit so to speak.

 

[All about Grace]

Larry: For an excellent presentation of reasons to be concerned, go to this link, and listen to the Feb 25 message. It is a well balanced presentation that tries to seperate the legitimate from the illegitimate.

Larry,

I listened to a portion of the link. He seems to have some good points. However I could not make it through the entire presentation. I was reminded why one of the central tenents of my personal philosophy of ministry is that I must engage my audience. I can speak a volume of truth but if I fail to do it in an engaging way, few in the audience will hear.

But then again, that's an entirely different topic within methodology (which as you know is one of my favorite topics).

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by vaspers:
Just show me where The Passion faithfully presents biblically accurate scenes and dialogue.

Actually, I am not going to take the time to quote Bible and compare it to the film, but I can say that MUCH of the dialogue, between Pilot, Jesus and the Preists were right out of scripture.

Why don't you show me how many times the Ten-Commandments varied from the Bible--would you like a list of that too?

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Elijah:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vaspers:
By "dumbing down" I mean how many church goers are easily led into dubious paths and products by clever marketers, celebrities, and church leaders.

And how so few seem to express real deep concern for Biblical accuracy and fidelity to the text of the Word of God.

The new "dumbed down" standard: if all the church leaders praise it, if it made me feel good or weeep into my popcorn, if it increased numbers for a mega-church potential, if it is on the New York Times bestseller list, if the secular world is pleased and not offended by it, etc.

Yes, Western Christianity is being "dumbed down" at an alarming rate. Not everyone who praises a film I am opposed to is "dumb"--but to judge a spiritual product by anything other than strict adherence to God's holy Word, that is "not smart."

Third World, Chinese, South American, African Christianity is the New Wave.

God has pretty much departed from the USA.

We got rid of prayer and 10 Commandments and sanctity of marriage and God said, "I get the message. See you folks later. I'm outta here. I got better things to do than watch you disgrace Me."

Sorry vaspers, but God did not leave us. And as long as there are born again believers in this country He will not, no matter what our politicians do. We just have to be carefull that we ourselves do not support such things as homosexual marriage, abortion etc.

</font>[/QUOTE]Sooooooo, does this mean we might as well just give up (as Christians) on our country? Since God is no longer here, then I guess there is no need to try to reach anybody for him; maybe we should move to Africa.

YES, I agree with you on what is happening to America, but I disagree with your "God has already left us, so we might as well quit" attitude.

Let me explain how our little country church is using Mel's film. With the youth group our youth minister is reading the story from the Bible BEFORE to the kids that go see the movie. THey are invited to bring all their lost friends, who will hear this from the Bible, too. Then they see the movie, then they go back to church and have pizza while they discuss the film further and discuss that Jesus went through all of the suffering and crucifiction for each of us who will accept him. So, far, several in our group have made professions of faith. Would that have happened without the movie? I don't know, but I for one will look at results and is it worth twenty people coming to Christ? Ten? One?

 

[Elijah]

Originally posted by Phillip:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elijah:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vaspers:
By "dumbing down" I mean how many church goers are easily led into dubious paths and products by clever marketers, celebrities, and church leaders.

And how so few seem to express real deep concern for Biblical accuracy and fidelity to the text of the Word of God.

The new "dumbed down" standard: if all the church leaders praise it, if it made me feel good or weeep into my popcorn, if it increased numbers for a mega-church potential, if it is on the New York Times bestseller list, if the secular world is pleased and not offended by it, etc.

Yes, Western Christianity is being "dumbed down" at an alarming rate. Not everyone who praises a film I am opposed to is "dumb"--but to judge a spiritual product by anything other than strict adherence to God's holy Word, that is "not smart."

Third World, Chinese, South American, African Christianity is the New Wave.

God has pretty much departed from the USA.

We got rid of prayer and 10 Commandments and sanctity of marriage and God said, "I get the message. See you folks later. I'm outta here. I got better things to do than watch you disgrace Me."

Sorry vaspers, but God did not leave us. And as long as there are born again believers in this country He will not, no matter what our politicians do. We just have to be carefull that we ourselves do not support such things as homosexual marriage, abortion etc.

</font>[/QUOTE]Sooooooo, does this mean we might as well just give up (as Christians) on our country? Since God is no longer here, then I guess there is no need to try to reach anybody for him; maybe we should move to Africa.

YES, I agree with you on what is happening to America, but I disagree with your "God has already left us, so we might as well quit" attitude.

Let me explain how our little country church is using Mel's film. With the youth group our youth minister is reading the story from the Bible BEFORE to the kids that go see the movie. THey are invited to bring all their lost friends, who will hear this from the Bible, too. Then they see the movie, then they go back to church and have pizza while they discuss the film further and discuss that Jesus went through all of the suffering and crucifiction for each of us who will accept him. So, far, several in our group have made professions of faith. Would that have happened without the movie? I don't know, but I for one will look at results and is it worth twenty people coming to Christ? Ten? One? </font>[/QUOTE]Excellent point Phillip. If this movie leads some lost folks to Christ, then it cant be such a bad thing.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by vaspers:
Okay, I'll give you some examples. I've got bigger fish to fry, so I'll be brief:

1. Satan appears as a woman, or womanly entity. (This should upset feminists or women in general. Bible never says satan appears female.)

Satan and angels are referred to as male in the Bible, but so is mankind in general because that was the custom. It is thought that the angels are non-sexual beings. Yes, a woman was used to play the part. Mel was looking for someone who could portray the fact that Satan was created as a very beautiful creature, but was made evil-looking by sin. I think he did a pretty good job.

2. Satan appears in Gethsemane, whereas Bible says an angel appeared to comfort Jesus.

[/qb/]

Is Mel not allowed any artistic latitude in a movie? Was artistic latitutude used in the Ten Commandments? ABSOLUTELY. We do know that demonic activity was very high during the life of Jesus as a man. If Satan ever had a chance to win, he probably thought it was while Jesus was having to remain sinless with the weaknesses of the flesh. How do we know that Satan did not talk with Jesus during this time? We do know that Satan and Jesus did talk. Maybe the ministering angels were to give him strength during this time. Just because Mel chose not to show the ministering angels does not mean they weren't there. I also think that Mel was using some symbolism with Satan and the serpent as he refers back to the statements made in Genesis. This may have been more symbolism than actual physical contact, but you can bet that Satan was working on Jesus at that time of trial and tribulation.

[qb]
3. Many sub-titles of dialogue are not what are found in the Bible records, too many to relate now, check it out yourself.

It WAS A MOVIE!!!!!!!!! While what you say may be true, many, many subtitles WERE right out of the scriptures. Do you think the Bible recorded every nuance of sound or sight that occurred? No, so Mel filled it in to make the movie realistic, but except for some monitor Catholic issues, the movie was doctrinally accurate.

4. Jesus dangling on a chain from a cliff.

Were you there? Have you been to the site Jesus was crucified and wondered exactly what path they took? Again, just because this was not in the Bible, does it mean it was not okay to show it? Did it hurt the doctrine any?

5. Mary kissing feet of dead or dying Jesus.

Again, were you there?

[quote
6. Jesus apparently leaving tomb naked, when women were in vicinity.
[/quote]

Jesus' death clothes were found folded in the tomb. How do we know the women even saw him.

Do you realize that part of Jesus' humiliation was that he was probably hanging on the cross without any clothes as were most crucifiction victims of the Romans? Maybe Mel should have been a little more accurate there? (I think he did a fine job.)

Biblical inaccuracy is never a "moot point" for those who love God's Word, which gave us faith and the new birth, being born again by the engrafted word which is able to save our souls.

Tell me, I repeat again, the "direct quotes and scenes from Scripture." Name a handful if you can. I'm listening. Gotta go. Be back later tonight if possible. Got other work to do on computer.

God bless us all, pro- or anti- Passion film. There is only One Body of Christ, One Spirit, One Lord. Praise God.

Specifically, rather than try to remember it all, most all of the conversation between Jesus, Pilot and the Priests were very accurate. When Pilot asked Jesus if he was the King of the Jews, the man playing Jesus answered Biblically. The response of the Jewish priests to Pilots words were all Biblical. Many, many of the flash-backs were straight out of the scriptures.

Mel did a good job portraying his mental picture of what took place, no man who makes a movie about something such as this will be accurate 100% of the time. Mel never claimed he was a Baptist. But, I must say his doctrine is not lost on people and again, I say it is up to the churches to use this as an opening to TELL people WHY Jesus suffered like he did. This is an EXCELLENT OPPORTUNITY to use discussion of the film to bring people to Christ.

If you just sit back and complain about the film, the non-christians will see nothing but bickering. To them, we are just a bunch of hypocrites anyway. If you use it to explain why he suffered the way he did, then you just might lead someone to the Kingdom of God!!!!!!!!!!