Ananais and Sapphira...lost?

Oh, well if you say so.

 

It continues to amaze me how many people continue to pervert the simple Gospel message of the grace of God/Christ by backloading works into the picture.

Folks works does not/can not EVER enter the picture of spiritual salvation prior to, during or after. It you try to place works and spiritual salvation into the same sentence you are in fact preaching a works based salvation and you can deny it as many times as you want to, but it doesn't change the matter.

Works are required of a disciple and has to do with discipleship NOT spiritual salvation.

Folks have been misusing the old things have passed away and all things have become new line for a long time. This does not mean that you are a new creature that has lost the sin nature and the ability to allow the sin nature (flesh) to rule in your life.

If we were always going to walk in the Spirit and allow the Spirit to control our lives except for a few hiccups here and there then there would have been no need to tell us, command us, exhort us, encourage us to walk in the Spirit, and to deny self, and to take up our cross, and to die to our self, etc.

The Bible does not tell us anywhere in the OT or NT that God requires Lordship for salvation. The ONLY things that are required are death and shed blood and one's faith in those things. For us it is faith that Jesus Christ, the Spotless Lamb of God died and shed His blood on our behalf a sinner.

If we believe that then we are saved or the Bible is a lie and God is a liar. And we know that is not the case. So if anyone believes that Jesus Christ died and shed His blood on their behalf a sinner they are saved. Period. End of dicussion as far as Scripture is concerned. Everything else that speaks of salvation is not speaking to spiritual salvation or you are placing contradictions on Scripture that can not be there, even though modern day Lordship salvation folks have tried to explain matters away.

It amazes me how so many say let Scripture say what Scripture says, that is until Scripture disagrees with what they beleive and have been taught and then it is let Scripture say what I want it to say, becuase I don't like what it REALLY says.

 

2 Peter, chapter 2

1": But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

"2": And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

"3": And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

"4": For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

"5": And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

"6": And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

"7": And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

"8": (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

"9": The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

"10": But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

"11": Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

"12": But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

"13": And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

"14": Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

"15": Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

"16": But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

"17": These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

"18": For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

"19": While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

"20": For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

"21": For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

"22": But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

Romans, chapter 8



"1": There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"2": For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

"3": For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

"4": That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"5": For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

"6": For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

"7": Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

"8": So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

"9": But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

"10": And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

"11": But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"12": Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

"13": For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

Amen, brother Bob!

Jeremiah 6:13-19
13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

 

Brother Bob it's always funny that you quote Scripture that actuallys disproves what you are trying to say :laugh: As they would say in the sports world keep it up Brother Bob you are our best player when quotting Scripture!

Edit: Just went back and re-read the Scripture your posted and here is a perfect example.

You say that all Christians will do what they are supposed to do and will never commit sins of the flesh or that proves they weren't saved in the first place, but in the Scripture you quoted Paul disagrees with you.

"12": Therefore, brethren (saved people), we are debtors (we owe the flesh nothing), not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

"13": For if ye (that's those saved people he is still talking to) live after the flesh (so it is possible to live after the flesh), ye shall die (ah but there are consequences for doing such): but if ye (those same saved people) through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body (certainly doesn't sound like an automatic to me), ye shall live (ah and there are positive consequences as well).

Its the same thing as was said in the gospels. If you live for self you are going to lose your life (soul), but if you die to self you will save your (soul) in the coming age.

It's amazing how consistent Scripture is when we just let it say what it says!

 

J.Jump, you're in error also!

If there is no evidence of salvation, then it never happened!

You cant have it both ways! You cant claim to belong to Christ and go your own way! IF you truly belong you will do all in your power to please HIm, be obedient to Him, love Him, praise HIm, thank HIm, love the brethren and tell others about His mercy and grace!

He said to be holy as He is holy! Today's easy believism is leading many into error who think they're saved and are not! Get real! Where is the love and loyalty to ONE who died that whosoever believes may join Him in eternity! If you believe, there is evidence!! You cant straddle that fence, get on or get off!!

 

Say it again, this time with feeling!

Why do you say Jesus died so that whosever believes may join Him in eternity, but then say that we have to show love and loyalty in order to receive that gift? That's a logical fallacy, love and loyalty are not the same as belief.

 

You dont show love and loyalty to receive the gift but you do it because you did receive the gift! It is proof positive that you did receive it and are now saved! The evidence of what occured!

I will say it again! James so clearly declared that if one has faith, it is demonstrated by works! Works earns us nothing! It shows that we now face a different direction, have a new view, a new master, a new allegiance and would die to defend it!

 

Brother you can say that all you want to, but it just does not make it so. The Bible does not support that statement at all. If it does please show me, becuase no one has been able to to date.

Exactly. That's the whole point I was trying to make. Those that think all they have to do is believe and then they can go back to living the same lifestyle are going to have a rude awakening come judgment day! But just becuase they choose not to walk in the Spirit does not mean that they weren't saved. Again is Scripture evidence is there please reveal it.

Not only can you, but there are many Christians today that do exactly that unfortunately. I used to be one of them.

Again that is a pie in the sky statement that has no Scriptural backing. It would be nice if that was true, but it's just not.

Amen! That is a command, but as a command it is something that can be followed or rebelled again. Notice the Bible does not say and you did not say that God said you will be holy as I am holy. It says we are supposed to be holy as God is holy. HUGE difference!

Actually it is the error of Lordship salvation that is causing everyone to question whether they are saved or not, becuase they never know if they've done enough good works to prove if they were saved in the first place. Lordship salvation leaves people questioning and they never really get past the salvation issue becuase they have no certainty.

Again you can say these types of statements until you are blue in the face, but it just doesn't make them true.

Amen to that!!!

 

No the Biblical statement is you SHOULD do it. There is no Scripture support that says we will automatically be loyal, obedient, faithful and whatever else you want to throw in there.

If that is the case then it makes no sense to command us to do something we are going to do. It makes no sense to encourage us to do something we are going to do. It makes no sense to tell us there is consequences for not doing those things, becuase we are going to do them.

It's just not possible to support your view with Scripture, or if it is why haven't you given any so we can look at it?

 

I think you have Hebrews 11:1 backwards brother. If I receive a gift from my aunt Edna, a new pair of striped knee socks, and I don't get excited about it, does that mean I didn't really get the gift? The fact that some people are ingrates is not a reflection on the goodness of the gift or the Giver.

 

Those who you refer to that 'choose' to go their own way after being saved were in fact never saved! They remain unregenerate, making profession but owning nothing!

They are those the Lord addresses when He say, Many will say in that day......., and I will say I NEVER knew you. He doesnt say He doesnt know them but that He never, ever has had a relationship with them at all! They are not His! They can claim all they want to that they are 'christians' but they are NOT if there is no changed life and if they dont live in obedience to HIm.
How can there be a follower who doesnt follow?

 

How do you explain this parable?

Matthew 25:14-30
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The king called his own servants. He did not tell the third servant 'you never really were my servant to begin with, get out of my house you imposter.' No, he says 'wicked and slothful servant' (but theres no such thing as a wicked slothful servant!) Thou knewest, thou oughtest, but thou didn't.

 

Again says you, but where is the Biblical support? Where is the verse that says if a person is grateful and faithful and obedient and all those other things you want to tie in they really weren't saved, but fooling themselves?

That's just not what the Bible says. The Bible says by grace you have been saved through faith. That's it. It doesn't say anything about works. Oh wait it does. It says no works. And then it says one SHOULD walk in the works afterward, but it is not a guarantee.

And Acts 16:30-31 tells us that we have to believe and we will be saved. That's it. It doesn't say you might be saved, but just wait a week or a month or a year or 5 years or 10 years and you might be saved if you can see enough good works come out of your members.

It says believe and you WILL BE saved. And that's the end of the discussion of salvation as far as God is concerned. After that point the focus is not salvation, but discipleship.

But what is in view in this passage? Works right . . . right . . . so that means this is not a passage of spiritual salvaiton, becuase works NEVER enter into the picture of salvation.

He is telling them He doesn't know them in regard to their works, not in regard to them being a member of the family! Context, context, context.

Here's the problem with viewing these as unsaved people. They cast out demons. Satan can not cast out Satan. So either these were saved people (which they were) or they were lying about their works. There is no rebuke for lying here.

They did those works, which means that could not have been unsaved, because an unsaved person can not cast out a demon.

Again you are stepping outside of the context. They weren't claiming to be Christians they were claiming to have good works. Your talking about oranges and the Bible is speaking of apples.

Now you've got it! There can't be a follower who doesn't follow! But spiritual salvation is not about following it's about believing. Following is the step AFTER spiritual salvation has been complete!

 

The one unfaithful servant was an imposter, just like those who said to Him Lord, Lord, and He said He never knew them!
He cast the imposter out, as he had claimed to be a servant but was not!

Hey, this is all a no win as you are as hard set in your mind as I am after listening to a godly man do wonderful expository preaching on this! You go along your way and I will continue doing what I can to bring glory to His name!
God bless you both! I'm wrung out from trying to convince closed ears and heart! I'll pray!

 

Brother, I would love to convince you, but I mainly do this for those who are watching. I realize you have your position and are entrenched in it. It's pretty much the same position that the whole lukewarm last days church clings to. As long as we have some kind of fruit, even if it aint that great, we can say 'we tried Lord, we tried.' But if your fruit isn't up to the invisible standard that noone can show in scripture, woe is you, you fake Christian. When Jesus finds out you have been pretending to believe in Him, He is gonna be mad!

But I have to ask why you think the Lord of those servants didn't know he had fake servants in his household. I mean, He bought and paid for them, probably even had the receipt.

 

Brother how can you be wrung out? You haven't posted any Scriptures or answered any of my questions. I'm only set in my belief system until someone can show me that what I believe is wrong (and I have proven that to be true as I just made some major theological changes about 10 months ago). But you like most others make statements and expect people to change their views based on your statements, and I am not going to do that.

If you want me to change my views then you are going to have to bring out some Biblical support and be able to answer some tough questions about it.

And what has happened is you have let a preacher/teacher lead you astray from God's Word, and I am willing to back that statement up as much as you want it backed up.

I'll start by responding to your calling the servant an imposter. What you are doing is calling the Bible a lie, becuase the Bible didn't say the servant was an imposter. The Bible says specifically that HIS servants were called. Not two of HIS servants and an imposter, but all of the servants were HIS servants. If one was an imposter we would have been told as much.

See when we don't let the Bible say what It says then we can be led down all kinds of rabbit trails. It says HIS servants, so we have to deal with what that means, not side step it and say all that's really not what the Holy Spirit meant to say, He really meant to say He was an imposter.

And again how is it that you can have an unsaved man casting out demons, when the Bible says that can't happen?

 

Well, I must return to say that you are totally mistaken about my position!
I've said it a thousand times so far that there is no way to qualify for eternal life! It is solely by the grace of God and is His gift to me.

Now, because I so love HIm and have such gratitude I will do all I can to reflect His love to the brethren and to care for others. This earns me nothing! Nothing! I cant make it any clearer! I love Him because He first loved me!
Not by any works of righteousness that I have done but according to His mercy He saved me, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost! Titus 3:5
There is no liberalism in this body or mind! They dont come any more conservative than I am! I think you totally misunderstood my position! Yes, I work for the Lord, I use those talents He gave me, because I love Him and for no other reason! Now, the fact that I do love Him and care for the brethren reflects the fact that I am His and He is mine! It only shows ownership. I am His bondservant! He is my master! He chose me before the foundation of the world, in eternity past, that I should be His own!
Sorry for the tirade but nothing fires me up more than that word 'liberal'!
I was in such a church and I prayed that the Lord would guide me to a church where His word was faithfully preached without compromise! He did that and I thank Him!
Do not ever confuse me with a liberal!!
I am so sorry you fellows can understand what James is saying in 2:14-26 where he clearly shows that faith RESULTS in good works!
That no-lordship doctrine is real heresy! I pray you read the bible and find His truth!!

 

J. Jump
It plainly tells you that Christians walk after the Spirit and don't do those things.

I declare you can't read. J. Jump;
I knew something was wrong and now I know, you can't read!!!!!

who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit

which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

I don't think you can understand scripture but you are having a good time so go to it.

You still read Paul's writings as if everyone in the house were Christians and not realizing Paul was trying to cleanse the church from such that walk after the flesh. Paul said from such to withdraw and you say the whole church walks after the flesh instead of the Spirit.