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Andy Stanley and Mass Deception

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AndyMartin, May 18, 2017.

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  1. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    Except he did bring it up by casting doubt on Jericho, the flood, the Exodus, etc.
    I have no problem restricting the Gospel to the essentials but that does include the fall, which is undermined if you ask how anyone can believe in 2 people running around a garden naked.

    Let's not forget that this was all said in a church service, which brings up another issue with Stanley and the purpose of church worship services.
    Mars Hill is how Paul deals with unsaved out in the world, he gets straight to the important Gospel.
    His Epsitles show how he deals with the Church, and he pulls no punches, and never undermined the Scriptures.



    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
    #61 blessedwife318, May 19, 2017
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I share your concerns here. I understand what Stanley is doing (we should not demand belief in the accuracy of Scripture in order to share the gospel) but I also think his efforts are misplaced. He could have encouraged the exact same thing - focusing on the gospel alone in evangelism - without downgrading truth.

    There are people that I love, respect, and care about who disagree with me here - but I believe the pastor's role is as an under-shepherd (or "overseer") to the church rather than as an evangelist to the world (although I also realize the later bleeds over into the former to an extent). I believe Stanley has a view similar to a pastor and friend of mine in that everything the church does is focused directly on evangelism and getting people into the church. I believe the church is for the saved, and that evangelism goes out from the church.

    Ironically, in terms of evangelism I was going to mention Paul's words at the Acropolis. I don't think his method would be welcomed by many today because he did something similar to what Stanley is trying to do. He let the world have its error and used that as a context to present the gospel. I think were his message a sermon to the church it would have been very different.
     
    #62 JonC, May 19, 2017
  3. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Jon, I think you don't understand what infallibility and inerrancy, actually means? You say that Paul tells us that our Faith "is founded in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ", which is correct. However, where do we read these words of the Apostle Paul? The New Testament, 1 Corinthians chapter 15. It is because it is recorded in the Holy Bible, that we fully believe in it. If this is the Word of Almighty God, than it follows that His Word has to be Perfect as He is Perfect. This means that the Holy Bible has to be Infallible and Inherent as its Foundation to have the Authority of God stamped on it. You cannot separate the two, otherwise we have the problem that parts of the Bible can contain error!

    Look, just because God is saving people through Stanley, does NOT mean that it is Bible based, or that God approves. There are thousands of lost souls in his church, who are deceived by his "theology", and the Lord, Who is willing that none perish, in His Great Love and Mercy, is saving precious souls. Roman Catholics are being saved in their churches, NOT because the churches or priests are right, but because God will do His work of bring souls into His Kingdom. I have heard that Jehovah's Witnesses have been saved through reading their New World Translation, which does not mean that God agrees with the translation, because, apart from the passages that they have tampered with for their "theology", the rest is the Word of God, which is the Power of God unto salvation to all who believes.
     
    #63 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
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  4. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    What is wrong with people? I cannot understand why there are some who are still trying to defend Andy Stanley? There is no doubt that he has problems with the Infallibility of the Word of God. I have also posted on this thread, where AS thinks it not important whether the Virgin Birth as recorded in the Bible, is true of not. He say that all that matters is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. WRONG! The Virgin Birth speaks of the Incarnation of God the Son, when He entered this world as the God-Man. Without the Virgin Birth, there can be no death of Jesus nor Resurrection. No teacher or pastor can say one is important and the other is not. No Bible believing Christian can cast any doubts on any account in the Word of God, as AS is clearly doing. His stance is no doubt causing the faith of many to be shaken and producing in believers a worldly acceptance in the Word of God. He is clearly a danger to the church.
     
    #64 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I can assure you that I do understand what infallibility and inerrancy means. I may not have been the top student in seminary, but I was fairly good at definitions. :Biggrin

    I believe we hold the same understanding of infallibility and inerrancy (you and I, I'm not sure about Stanley as his comment about the being true in what it affirms as true has been used as "double-talk"). I still don't believe that men are saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ AND affirming biblical inerrancy. The foundation of our faith is what affirms Scripture (not the other way around). Biblical doctrine is true not because it comes from the Bible but because God is a faithful God.
     
    #65 JonC, May 19, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I will take this as addressed to me as well since I've been responding here. Again, I want to make clear I am not defending Stanley (it is not my place to attack or defend the pastor). Do you believe the Bible was without error when Paul spoke of glorifying God that the gospel was being preached even if by false teachers? Or is this the only error in the Bible?

    My point is not to defend Stanley but to highlight that while he may be wrong in diminishing one truth (or several truths) to highlight and convey the gospel, he does have a point. We may believe because "the Bible tells us so", but we cannot demand of the world to believe because "the Bible tells us so." We disagree because I believe the Bible is for Christians and the gospel for the lost. I don't think I'll budge here, but I do understand your concern.
     
    #66 JonC, May 19, 2017
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  7. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    My point being, that ALL that we believe and hold is based on the Holy Bible, which is the Word of God. And nothing short of a 100% perfect Bible is needed. A person can be saved by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and faith in His finished work on the cross. But, if that same person doubts whether the Bible is God's Word and that it might contain error, then I would question if they were born again. the Holy Spirit gives all those who are born-again an assurance that they can fully depend on the Bible as the Infallible, Inerrant Word of God, and believe ALL (not most or some) it says, with full confidence. The problem with Infallibility and Inerrancy has been around for a over 150 years, and was championed by the likes of James Orr, Benjamin Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, Harold Lindsell, etc
     
    #67 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
  8. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    There are no errors in the original Bible autographs. Translations are just that, the work of fallible man, which do have some "errors" that are in them. Like, when versions remove the word "God" in 1 Timothy 3:16, and replace it with "who", or "he who", and omit the reference to the Holy Trinity in 1 John 5:7, etc. Some are "scribal errors", while others are deliberate changes, men tampering with God's Word.
     
    #68 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Good for you, you have found some disgruntled people who left a mega Church. I can find disgruntled people who left any church.
    Its impossible to have a discussion with someone who keeps moving the goal posts. You have gone from Andy Stanley does not believe the literal account of creation, to Andy believes it, but his reasons for believing it are wrong.

    The truth is you just don't like him and you will find fault with everything he does. It is like I told one of the other preachers in our county "It is easier for you to find fault with those who are succeeding, than to deal with why you are failing." He got mad, but his associate pastor busted out hysterically laughing. He does not like Andy because he has lost almost 1/3rd of his members to Andy's church. He liked him fine until that happened and then Andy became the devil. What he can't figure out is that the more he bashes Andy, the more members he loses.
     
    #69 Reynolds, May 19, 2017
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  10. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Again, you fail to understand Stanley's model of evangelism. You also fail to understand why it works.
     
    #70 Reynolds, May 19, 2017
  11. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Hi Reynolds, you see, it is not about whether we like AS or not, this is really not the issue here. neither is it that we are in judgement on him, but, it is important to tell it as it is, when "pastors" who have the responsibility of being shepherds of the souls of those entrusted to their care, openly undermine the Word of God, and say things that would cause many to doubt themselves. Did you see my post earlier, with AS on the Virgin Birth, where he says, "Christianity does not hinge on the truth or even the stories about the birth of Jesus, it really hinges on the resurrection of Jesus"? This tells me that AS is content is saying that the Virgin Birth of Jesus could well be untrue.
     
    #71 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
  12. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    It is God Who saves lost souls, even through those who are not faithful to Him or His Word. Please don't think that because God may use AS to save thousands, that this means that God condones what he is saying or doing!
     
    #72 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
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  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    This is the problem. Andy believes in the authority if scripture. He believes in the Inerrancy if Scripture. He also believes that to reach a person which has been indoctrinated by post modern teaching (there is no truth, truth us relative to the individual) that you have to employ different strategies.

    I will give you an example. I was having a conversation with someone who did not believe the Bible, but they did believe the historical account of the martyr of the apostles? I asked him "So, you think these men died aginizing, brutal, deaths to protect a lie? It got him thinking. He now believes.
     
    #73 Reynolds, May 19, 2017
  14. AndyMartin

    AndyMartin Active Member

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    Lets hope this thread does not divert from what it was
    That is not the point here. How can ANY born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ make this remark?

    "Christianity does not hinge on the truth or even the stories about the birth of Jesus, it really hinges on the resurrection of Jesus"?

    Is it right for any pastor to say this? Can you deal with this?

    Thanks
     
    #74 AndyMartin, May 19, 2017
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I was saved without holding to the inerrancy of Scripture. At the time, I had no opinion on the matter. But what happened was that God drew me to Himself and opened my eyes to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was supernatural. He gave me a new heart and a new spirit. I was not the same, and I knew I was not the same even though I held no great understanding. And God put His Spirit in me. I died to myself and was made alive in Christ. I may not have known the Bible as a whole was without error, but I knew my Savior and My God.

    Stanley's issue is in diminishing what may appear as foolishness to the lost by actively subduing certain doctrines. He is right, however, that while "the Bible says so" is appropriate for the church it doesn't work well in evangelism . But viewing Inerrancy as our foundation seems to deny the sufficiency of the gospel itself by insisting other "supporting" doctrines be accepted before one can be saved.
     
    #75 JonC, May 19, 2017
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Before anyone gets the wrong idea, Andy Stanley us not arguing against the Inerrancy of scripture (which he states that he affirms) but against imposing the believers position of biblical authority ("the Bible says so") on the unchurched.
     
    #76 JonC, May 19, 2017
  17. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    Oh I can understand why it fills seats. But filling seats does not equal evangelism. I'm listening to his Easter speech right now to see if he does a Gospel message. Because that is the key, without the Gospel it doesn't matter how much he entertains people on Sunday.
     
    #77 blessedwife318, May 19, 2017
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  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Let me explain to you how Andy operates. It might be a shocker. He does on occasion present the gospel message from the pulpit. Where the gospel is presented the strongest is in the life groups and small groups. Two of my cousins individually host separate small groups in this area. He us using the typical mega church model. 1. Draw a crowd with the Sunday service, or special event. 2. Get them plugged into a small group. 3. Disciple them.

    Do I think its the ideal model? Not for me, but it is getting a lot of people saved, so I am not going to gripe about it.
     
    #78 Reynolds, May 19, 2017
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No it is not process it is a lack of discipleship.
     
    #79 Revmitchell, May 19, 2017
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  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    OK but our job is not to diminish solid truth to make it more palatable. We need to preach the word whether it is convenient or not. I am pretty sure Paul addressed this with young Timothy.
     
    #80 Revmitchell, May 19, 2017
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