Limited Atonement, according to the Calvinist says that Christ only died for the elect. Yet, I John 2:2 disproves this belief.
1Jn 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Another Calvinistic Error
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Robert Snow, Dec 26, 2009.
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You would have
#1 Christ paying for sin and taking the wrath
#2 the individual who died in sin paying for his own sin as well
Now God has poured out 2 penalties for one persons sins and has become unjust.
I would say the whole world does not mean every human being who ever lived in that context. I think John means that Christ isn't just the propitiation for only the sins of those who the letter is to (the readers), but for the whole body of Christ.
If John doesn't mean what I said, the best case would be that John is talking about the fact that the offer is to the whole world. The offer is to all who repent and believe in the Gospel. In Calvinism, those who truly repent and believe would be your elect. This is the common response.
If Jesus paid for everyone's sins then nobody would be in hell and you would have universalism. -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I don't think The OP understands limited atonement fully. (BTW I'm not reformed.) A proper Calvinist reply would be simply that limited atonement means that whe Christ's is available to all it is only sufficient for the elect...or those who have been justifies by grace through faith.
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I think I understand what Calvinism teaches concerning "limited atonement." Of course, there is so much debate in the fog of Calvinistic definitions that it is sometimes difficult to nail down what they believe.
My interaction with Calvinists have shown me that they believe that Christ's atoning blood is only effective for the elect. I say that Jesus Christ died for every person who has or who will ever live. The forgiveness if there, it only has to be accepted. -
What about all the people who lived and died prior to Christ? Did they have a chance to accept that forgiveness?
Can a person be saved without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?
peace to you:praying: -
What about them? They are in God's hands to deal with as He chooses. Why wonder about those who haven't heard in the past, now, or in the future? My concern is for those who have heard and the responsibility that they bear upon hearing. My concern is for my personal responsibility to share the message with as many as God will use me to share it with.
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Job is a wonderful book isn't it.
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Again, do you believe the gospel is necessary for salvation?
peace to you:praying: -
How is it accepted if the person has already died?
Do you believe a person can be saved after he has died?
Do you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?
peace to you:praying: -
Yes, I believe that salvation is necessary for one to live in God's presence in glory.
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Sincerely,
A 4 and 1/2 point Calvinist (does such a thing exist?)
Martin. -
A good book on this matter is "The Death Christ Died: A Biblical Case for Unlimited Atonement" by Robert Lightner of Dallas Theological Seminary. :thumbs::thumbs:
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I agree that no man can ever pay for his own sin, because I would say that each sin is penalized with eternal consequences. Therefore as you say God's wrath is never fully satisfied and justice is an eternal payment of wrath from God to the sinner. This would mean justice is met in an eternal sentence. I think the worse the sinner is, the worse degree of hell they will have, but there are some who hold that all have the same degree of hell.
I think you raise a good point, and please critique what I just said.
I still think it is wrong for everyone to be going to hell simply because they have rejected a Savior. I think that has some truth to it, but as I said in the other thread, I think when people die in sin, they go to hell for their sins. If Christ paid for them then they arent going to hell for their sins.
I think this is definitely a tough topic to understand so dont think I have reached an ultimate destination on my logic. I do think Scripture is clear that God perfectly and precisely died for the elect and paid for their sin and I dont see why a non-Cal would deny this even in their view of foreknowledge.
I agree with the point that God's grace is sufficient for all mankind, but I dont think Jesus died just in case some would surprise Him and believe.
I also think when looking at Jesus payment it is vital to have a proper outlook on our condition:
1. We must ask ourselves if we deserve a Savior and a chance? NO
2. Is it fair for God to not save some? Yes
and so forth... I think God in some sense is willing to pay for all, but in the deepest truth only died for His elect because they are the only ones who would repent and believe. Yes I do think there is Scripture supporting both. -
People go to hell for one reason only.
Joh*3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -
Second, I do believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation.
I base these decisions on what the Bible says. Now, I don't know how God inputed righteousness to those before the Law, such as Job. I assume they believed what God said, and like Abraham, God counted it for righteousness on their behalf.
As far as those today who don't hear the Gospel, it appears to me that, without the Gospel being preached to them, they die in their sins. Other than that it is in God's hands. Like I said, I don't know everything.
Now, instead of asking questions, why don't you state what you believe and why you believe it. -
If that is what you mean, wouldn't it be better never to witness to anyone? Just let them die in ignorance so they never get an opportunity to reject Jesus Christ.
peace to you:praying: -
Do you believe the gospel is necessary for salvation?
peace to you:praying: -
For instance, your original statement was that forgiveness was available to everyone, it only had to be accepted.
But, upon answering the questions, I see now that is not what you believe.
You believe the forgiveness of Christ is only available to those who hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Did I understand you correctly?
peace to you:praying:
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