Featured Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit - Part 2

Where did Jesus allegedly say this?

CITE OR QUOTE SCRIPTURE if you are going to make a claim.

 

He does that all the time, when he bothers to support his assertions at all.

 

You are quoting Luke 18:8. Let's put it in context, with the passages immediately before and after it:

Luke 18:1-14 (NASB)
Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not become discouraged, saying, “In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect any person. Now there was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, ‘Give me justice against my opponent.’ For a while he was unwilling; but later he said to himself, ‘Even though I do not fear God nor respect any person, yet because this widow is bothering me, I will give her justice; otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.’” And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unrighteous judge *said; now, will God not bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night, and will He delay long for them? I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”

Now He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and began praying this in regard to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, crooked, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to raise his eyes toward heaven, but was beating his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other one; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”​

There are a few things going on in this passage. The lead-in to the verse you cited (marked in blue text) is a parable, explicitly interpreted for us, to show that disciples of Jesus must persevere in prayer, even to the point of feeling like we are a nuisance to God. Even an unrighteous judge gave the widow justice because of her persistence. How much more is the RIGHTEOUS judge (God) motivated to answer prayers for justice to those who persevere in prayer?

Then Jesus asked the haunting question (red text), will anyone have faith to do this? The implication is that true disciples will persevere in prayer.

Then Jesus makes a slight shift to tell another parable (see green text), also interpreted for us, that shows the character and attitude of a true disciple -- humility. The Pharisee (commonly seen as extremely devout in the community) thanks God for not being like a worthless person, for instance, that traitorous and thieving tax collector. He recounts his good works to God, making no appeals, because he believes he is righteous as he stands. In contrast, the tax collector is so ashamed his eyes do not leave the ground and simply begs for God's mercy. The tax collector has the kind of heart that God can work with, and the tax collector is heard and justified, his prayer answered.

So... this has nothing to do with a difference between the first century church and the church in the last days. If you think so, please explain.

 

"Super church?"

Persecution, martyrdom, beatings, oppression, imprisonment, and rejection were all part of the daily life of the church during the period reported by the book of Acts. The manifestations of the Spirit were also experienced during that period.

The existence of persecution does not inhibit the manifestations of the Spirit. In fact, they may become more relevant (according to the will and wisdom of God) in times of deep suffering.

Regarding what charismatics think, who cares? What charismatics believe doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the Bible teaches.

Frankly, your inability to cite and interpret the scriptures regarding these issues should be sobering. It seems all you know is what John MacArthur has claimed in his screed, Charismatic Chaos. You need to put down MacArthur's books and spend time in the scriptures on your own so you know what is actually written in them instead of simply parroting the ideas of other people.

 

Okay... You have a specific view of the end times that is part of your theology that I do not have. As I understand it, the "last days" (aka "end times" or "Great Tribulation") began nearly 2,000 years ago at Pentecost. We are not waiting for that time to begin. I am also not looking for signs and wonders, nor terribly impressed by them. The works of God are obvious to those who experience them, but most signs are quite discreet because they are meant for only a few to see.

That explains quite a bit. I have been in exactly one AOG service in the early 1990s (got dragged there by a friend wanting my opinion) and don't associate with that group. I can see that you are probably interpreting everything I say according to what you would tell an AOG person. I'm not an AOG member, nor have I been influenced by their doctrine. So you are fundamentally mistaken when you make the understandable assumption that I am promoting AOG viewpoints, just because they might sound similar on a surface level.

Thank you for explaining it. I have been very frustrated with you and now I understand part of the reason you are acting the way that you are.

 

For lack of better terminology, I believe in realized millennialism (what is pejoratively referred to a amillenialism).

 

No, not "realized eschatology," but realized millennialism. As I pointed out, it is the viewpoint that is pejoratively referred to as "amillennialism."

To be blunt, I don't bother myself too much about eschatology. It is clear to me that we are not told enough about the way God will resolve everything to create charts and timelines. However, we know it will happen and it can happen at any time.

 

Of course. I am preterist in the sense that much of what premillenial dispensationalists think is future actually happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD (for instance, Jesus "coming with the clouds" as an image of divine judgment on Jerusalem -- just as He predicted), but the return of Christ, the final judgment, and the restoration of all things has not yet occurred.