Can someone explain to me how a lost person can, on the one hand, know 'what may be known about God' and clearly understand "His eternal power and divine nature" simply by the general revelation of creation, BUT on the other hand not understand the Holy Spirit inspired gospel revelation, presented in their very own language using basic terms?
How do they understand more from what is revealed in creation than what is revealed by the Word Himself? And HOW is the claim that they CAN'T understand the gospel not giving them an excuse?
Here is the passage I'm referring to:
Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Apparent contradiction?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Apr 2, 2012.
Page 1 of 5
-
There is no contradiction.
The issue is in how we understand the word "know". There is a distinct difference being having a knowledge of and actually knowing someone. Reading through the gospel of John we see Jesus explaining in various terms how this works. He talked in the language people could understand on the physical level but unless drawn by God they would never really understand the true message of His words. To put it simply, they did not have ears to hear.
Knowing, like hearing and believing, are active words the imply something deeper in their meaning than most people grasp. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
However, the premise of truth presented (in Scripture, not the OP) is that they are without excuse, a position you've struggled with in other threads you've written. For example your 'how can you blame them' thread (or similar in title).
It's apparent that this topic is a huge stumbling block for you, but the Scriptures are plain: Sovereign God says they are without excuse, and there is absolutely no contradiction. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
The reason they did not have 'ears to hear' was because their hearts had 'grown calloused' not because they were born in that condition. Heb. 3 warns us not to allow our hearts to become like the Jews and grown hardened like theirs did. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
When they do any of these things they are without excuse, because the Creation demands a Creator and they should be searching and reaching out for Him (Acts 17:27), but in fact, unless God moves someone's heart to do so, 'There is none who seeks after God' (Rom 3:11).
That is why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.
Steve -
-
can confess that Bible teach jesus died foe sinners, raised from dead per bible, but cannot make a heart commitment until enabled to the working of the Holy Spirit on their behalf!
they would be as the demons, know the truth and facts of God, but refuse to acknowledge Him! -
And I believe those mean are not 'irresistible.' They are sufficient to enable a response, but not irresistible to ensure a positive one.
This debate is really not about whether or not men seek God, we both agree that mankind doesn't. This is about man's ability to respond to a God actively seeking to save the lost.
-
All people have enough knowledge of God through creation to be held accountable, but special revelation is given only to God's people. This can be seen in the special privilege given to the Jews (mentioned just two chapters later in Romans), over against the Gentiles, of having received God's very oracles/spoken words: "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-2). The Jews received special revelation of God's oracles, unlike the Gentiles. "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). But creation itself is not a special revelation, but rather it displays memorials and testimonies of God for all men to see and understand. Does that shed any light on it?
God Bless,
~Josh -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Carry on without me.
Steve -
Steve, look at the top of the page and you will see this is a debate forum. We are actually supposed to present our differing views in the form of an argument (in accordance with the rules, of course). If you get in over your head it is fine to bow out or just admit you don't know how to respond, but there is no need to make unkind accusations and pretend to be righteously indignant in response to an otherwise cordial and well meaning rebuttal on a DEBATE FORUM.
-
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
All I'm saying is, carry on without me. That is my right. I really thought for a moment that you might have started a thread on an interesting topic here, but it was not to be.
Steve -
-
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Actually, I'm not going to. (participate, that is).
Steve -
If I may, here is my thoughts or nickles worth:
Look at vs 19 of Romans 1 which in context is connected to vs 18:
Not only there but as you read the rest of Romans 1 you can see 3 interesting things that man comes to know specifically.
1) Sin;
2) righteousness;
3) Judgment to come
What makes this so interesting is that Jesus stated the Holy Spirit into the 'world' to convict the world of:
1) Sin;
2) righteousness;
3) Judgment to come.
From here it appears that man's intellect and rational ability are not enough for him to understand these things by himself. God must reveal them to man.
Another point just as important is that mans heart once he chooses not to believe becomes darkened/hardened (vs 21), and continuing in this manner and going from bad to worse (vss 22-23), we see it was AT THIS POINT (wherefore or because of this) God gave them over... it was after their rejection of His truth(s) he turned them over to have what they wanted most (separation) from Him.
This is important because it reveals something spectacular about God's interaction with unregenerate man.. that He not only DOES but IS doing so. It is important also because we see they weren't set aside and just left alone by God, and that God only works upon those whom will believe.
Personally I believe this argument can and SHOULD be made by Calvinists in that God does indeed work upon the unregenerate to the point they indeed do know not only of but somewhat about Him. However it is not done in such a way that compels them to come, but to only acknowledge Him and their own lostness. In this, like the very passage in Rom 1 (and even 2 shows) they are without excuse because they knew the truth, but rejected it. I believe this is seen enough in scripture give extremely strong support for this idea (though it is not my belief), yet it is not something you very often at all, though I have run across here and there of late. Regarding this kind of view I could at least agree with them more as I don't see scripture declaring that God does not work upon those who will not believe. (as evidenced here, He does, to some degree) -
How is that different than with the revelation of the gospel? Or is it different from your view point? -
Thus to me, no difference. God still has to bring understanding to man.
Regardless of when you consider it happening, the fact is still the same, God is doing it - not man. Man comprehends because God has made him to know it. -
Page 1 of 5