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Are anti-preterists all Dispensationalists?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by robycop3, Mar 3, 2019.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Most of the time, when anti-preterism material is posted here or on other sites, most of the prets immediately holler that the "dispys" are at it again, & that their view is wrong.

    I am anti-preterism. Does that make me a duspy? In a word, NO.

    Dispensationalism is the belief that God has "dispensed" the manner in which He reveals Himself & administers the world in several distinctive ages or periods of time. A close examination of His administration shows four periods: the time of the Old Covenant, made with Israel only, the New Covenant, for all mankind & now in force, the millenium, which will begin with Jesus' return, and the new world which will come when the millenium ends.

    Actually, I, and most other anti-prets are FUTURISTS, that is, we believe that the prophesied eschatological events have not yet occurred, but they WILL occur, and fulfill the prophecies to the letter. I believe we have the support of history and reality as shaped by Scripture as proof that this view is correct.

    In and others, have asked many prets to supply some **PROOF/EVIDENCE/DOCUMENTATION** that show the events they SAY have happened, actually HAVE happened, but their answers are all opinion, imagination, and guesswork - no PROOF! Either that, or they say, "Those Scriptures are SYMBOLIC." or, they say, Here's what that verse REALLY MEANS...". and provide a hastily-invented incorrect answer.

    Another branch of dispy I totally reject is the false "seven church ages" doctrine, begun in the 1600s by a mystic named Jane Leade, spread to Darby, and spread in the USA by the charlatan William M. Branham. While this false doctrine is seemingly harmless in itself, it IS a lie added to the body of Christian faith/worship, yet another of Satan's attempts to dilute the Gospel. Such a doctrine is found nowhere in Scripture. The seven churches of the Revelation all existed at that time, and types of them have existed continuously ever since.

    In short, preterists, knowing they cannot prove their claims, seek to impose some sorta guilt trip upon those of us who reject their pret hooey and call them down over it.
     
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  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am a partial-preterist, but do not let that fool you. I believe there will be a future, visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ. I point this out because the gulf between full preterism and partial preterism is sizeable. Now, are all non-full preterists dispensationalists? No. I am not a full preterist and I am not a dispensationalist. Futurism effectively demands a dispensational viewpoint.
     
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  3. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I don't see how futurism demands dispensationalism. Seems that partial preterism does.
    Partial preterism had a huge problem. Jesus said that OMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance that'll affect the earth, with partial obscuring of the sun & moon, during which He will return. (Matt. 24:29-30) So, if the great trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!

    Simple answer - the great trib hasn't yet occurred!

    When the trib DOES occur, the "age of grace" will still be in effect, as Scripture plainly mentions 'trib saints" However, God said He will send strong delusion upon the followers of the beast so they won't believe in Jesus & thus be condemned.
     
  4. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    I am guilty of assuming that "anti-preterism" automatically means "dispensationalism". That view is as wrong as saying that all preterists are the same. If you don't mind, I have a question from your post. You said
    How is this view of four periods NOT dispensationalist? I'm not trying to be difficult; just trying to understand the view. Are there other "dispy" views besides the "7 ages" view?

    Regarding your views of preterism, we've had that discussion a few times already. I've provided the "proof" you ask for, and I believe other Preterists on the BB have also provided "proof". You are looking for historical proof that you can find in history books or encyclopedias, but this kind of proof doesn't exist because you expect to see a literal fulfillment of events described in symbolic terms. Having said that, I do not wish to rehash the argument about the merits of Preterism. We simply will not agree. I am interested in "futurism" vs "dispensationalism". Before my first discussion with you on the topic, I'd never considered there was a difference.
     
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    There are quite a few. (I believe the "7 ages" view is false.) As I said, I believe in four. dispensations: Old Covenant, New Covenant, millenium, and world to come after the millenium.

    And we see, while some things changed in the first dispy, it was still based upon BELIEVING AND OBEYING GOD. In the New Covenant, Jesus has fulfilled all the sacrificial elements of the law,, and our salvation is based upon coming to Him in belief & submission, asking Him to forgive our sins. In the millenium, Jesus will be here, ruling the world, instantly settling any question of law, while there'll be no mortals in the world after that, that we know of. And God The Father will be with us as well.

    Actually, not one pret has provided one scad of PROOF, here, or any place else. When they come across an "incinvenient" Scriptuire, that is, one they know they cannot prove has already been fulfilled, they either try to twist history, or reduce that Scripture to "symbolic" status. Those are EXCUSES, not proofs! Preterism remains phony as a Frod Corvette!

    With all due respect, no, we won't agree, long as you believe that trash. I showed you from history that Nero did NOT meet the Scriptural criteria for the beast, & thus, couldn'ta been the beast, but you wanna go on believing it anyway! Don't you see you're countering your own doctrine? By believing Nero was the LITERAL beast, you're saying the whole set of eschatological prophecies are literal! Well, in that respect, you'd be right!

    I encourage you to PRAY EARNESTLY,& ask the HOLY SPIRIT to show you the TRUTH about preterism and Jesus' approaching return, and all the events to accompany that return. I also encourage you to study the history of the events of 68-70 AD CLOSELY, to see if the eschatological prophecies were REALLY fulfilled then! And I hope you don't feel badly when you see you were misled down the preterism path by booksellers and quacks trying to make a few $$s from gullible people. Don't worry; Jesus will forgive you if you ask Him!
     
  6. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Thank you for your explanation of the 4 "dispensations". That makes sense, and I tend to agree with you, although the Bible doesn't specify whether Jesus will reign here on Earth or from Heaven. Whether the "millennium" is a literal or figurative 1,000 years is irrelevant.

    Prophetic passages, like the rest of the Bible, are to be interpreted according to the sense in which they were written. Revelation contains more symbolism than any other book in Scripture. Some of the symbolism is explained by an angel, and some is explained by history.

    The more I do study the events of the Jewish Wars, the more I am convinced this fulfilled the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse and most of Revelation. I truly do appreciate both your concern and your advice, as they are obviously genuine.
     
    #6 Lodic, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The millenium will be a literal 1K years. And Jesus will rule here, on earth. Here's the proof:
    Rev. 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Obviously, a human army couldn't surround the camp & the city if they weren't on earth!


    And a good deal of it hasn't occurred yet.

    If you'd quit studying the horse feathers of Preston, Gentry, DelMar, etc. along with Scripture & history, & stick mainly to SCRIPTURE, you'd discover how phony preterism is.

    I know what being deceived is about. I was once deceived by the writings of Herbert Armstrong & his "worldwide Church of God" til the HOLY SPIRIT chose to show me how wrong he was. He showed me by causing me to closely read the passages in Rev that prove the lake of fire is eternal, and the wicked shall be in it for ever, while Herbie preached "annihilationism", that the souls of the wicked shall be destroyed when they're cast into that lake. Yes, I suffered a rude awakening. But, under the continuing guidance of the Holy Spirit and Jesus, I learned a great many Scriptural truths, & was able to connect history to them, without twisting either Scripture or history to make them fit.

    Remember, Jesus plainly said the great trib will be the worst set of disasters to ever hit mankind, both before and after it. And it will hit ALL mankind, not just the Jews.

    But, for the sake of discussion, let's say it'll only hit the Jews. I'm sure you're up on the Roman-Jewish war of 68-70 AD, but I don't believe you're as familiar with Hadrian's war against the Jews in 135-136 AD in which the Jews were expelled from their land, with that land being given to the Philistines, Israel's old enemy, as a lasting insult, with the Jews being hated & persecuted wherever they went, with many being killed or made into slaves for over 1800 years.

    Then, there was the nazi holocaust, from 1933 to 1945, with at least 6 million Jews murdered, often by starvation, etc. So far, that's been the worst disaster to ever befall the Jews. (But God began to lift their national punishment after the nazis fell. Their fortunes rapidly improved.)

    Rev. 16 tells about many of the plagues that'll occur in the great trib. remember, JESUS said if those days weren't cut short, NO FLESH (man or beast) would survive.

    Again, please take time to compare that old Jewish war with some of the wars that came later, to see, bad as it was, it was still just an "average" war in comparison with later ones. Speaking strictly about the Jews only, Hadrian's war against them, & the nazi holocaust were MUCH-WORSE on the Jews than the previous war.

    The 68-70 AD war was no worse on the Jews than the Babylonian conquest was, in which J & the temple were destroyed & the WHOLE NATION made captive. After 70 AD, the Jews & Romans lived much as they had before, with the Romans being satisfied that they'd purged the Jews of rebels. Much of J was soon rebuilt & occupied by Jews. But when Hadrian moved against them, they were all expelled entirely from their whole land, and reduced to "2nd-class" people among the Romans & treated with scorn & hatred wherever they went in the Roman empire or elsewhere.

    Again, let history speak for itself. We both know SCRIPTURE shapes history, and the prophesied eschatological events are simply NOT FOUND in history! The preterist writers have used their imaginations to paint a scenario in which all prophecy has been fulfilled, while ignoring history & reality. Same for "partial" prets. Jesus plainly said that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He will return. There's nothing else one can make outta Jesus' words about that event. And obviously it hasn't occurred yet! So, there can be only one of two possibilities: if the great trib was in 70 AD, Jesus' prophecy was wrong, or the events of 70 AD were NOT the great trib. I go with the LATTER, as I believe every word Jesus said that He caused to be recorded.

    I am hoping you'll start believing JESUS' words over those of the quack pret authors!
     
  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Lived as they had before? They no longer had their Temple and means of worship. The tearing of their Temple veil, from top to bottom, should have been a clue to the Jews that their entire dispensation was coming to an end.

    The Babylonian captivity was not as hard. In that event those who were obedient to God listened to prophets like Jeremiah and accepted captivity, trusting in God's promises. In the 60's, by contrast, the obedient were able to escape the doomed city, heeding Christ's warning.

    Mostly I just ignore your ALLCAP diatribes but some times you say things that are astonishingly wrong and I just have to respond.
     
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  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    ...except what He said about all of these events happening in "this generation". Then you listen to your "quack" futurists.
     
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  10. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    As I've been discussing with @John of Japan, the millennium is probably not a literal 1K years. Still, that is splitting hairs, as we will agree that it will be a long time. You are inferring that Jesus will reign on Earth, but the passage doesn't specify that.

    Or I could suggest that you stop listening to the popular "prophecy pundits" and read the Scripture without bias against Preterism. Take the "time texts" literally; take a different view of the symbolic texts that you think MUST be taken literally. In other words, turn your views around.

    I remember your thread about the WWCOG, and you are right. None of us are so spiritual or so learned that we cannot be deceived. I believe the whole "futurist" doctrine is wrong, but I don't believe it's an issue that could cost one's salvation. However, we are to "rightly divide the word of truth", and try to correct error when people push their false views.

    I believe Revelation 16 is symbolic of the Jewish Wars. If those days weren't cut short, none of the Jews would have survived.

    @asterisktom addressed your view where you seem to minimize the tribulation of the Jewish Wars. It's not the intensity, but the effect of this tribulation that made the difference. It wasn't just the fact that the Jews suffered, but that their whole lives changed with this tribulation.
     
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  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I get your point here and agree that one does not have to be dispensational to be anti-preterist. But your definition of dispensationalism is off. To be brief, it is a systematic doctrine of divine history, that God has given dispensations ("dispensed" has nothing to do with the semantics) to Mankind. A dispensation is a responsibility. When Mankind does not fulfill its responsibilities, God judges, and a new dispensation begins.
     
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  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I have pointed out over and over here on the BB that preterists have just as big a problem with the "time texts" as anyone else. 35 years is not "soon." Even 5 years (if you hold to the very difficult view of Rev. being written before 70) is not "soon."
     
  13. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Jesus said that "you will see", and they did. This gives a time reference for the "soon".
    To flip this around, many "futurists" have no problem with a 2,000 year "gap" between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. Preterists fail to understand that kind of logic. What is your view on that, if I may ask?
     
  14. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    To @John of Japan, @asterisktom, @robycop3, et al on this post - I not feeling well, so I won't be responding any more today. Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I might be back tomorrow. Seems to be a bad chest cold. Anyway, I'm signing off for now.
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    it had already ended at the "Last Supper" when Jesus introduced the New Covenant. And there were still many synagogues, as there is today.

    Well, actually, it WAS. Those Jews were removed from their land. In the Roman war, they were not. Once the rebels were disposed of, the rest of the Jews resumed their normal lives, except there was no temple. They still worshipped at synagogues.

    That's because as a pret, you have nothing but answers of imagination, opinion, & guesswork.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    "This generation" hasn't come yet, unless it's the current one.
     
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Well, the "camp of the saints" & the "beloved city" will certainly be on earth, and we know Jesus will have returned 1K years before that. Scripture doesn't say He will leave again, so He will be in that "camp of the saints".


    Why? I see many prophecies fulfilled literally, including those of the Olivet Discourse that have been fulfilled already. There's simply no sound or logical reason to believe otherwise. And my views come from a REALITY CHECK, not any futurist author. neasy to see those pret quax have invented lotsa their stuff outta thin air.


    That's what I'm doing. The false pret view cheapens Jesus' coming return. Besides, no Christian should believe any false, man-made doctrine.


    But it WASN'T cut short. The Romans WON! That's why it ended!


    But it was NOT at all the greatest trib to have ever hit the Jews, let alone the world. We just cannot ignore Jesus' saying that trib will be the worst-ever.
     
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  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    And there'll only be four of them altogether. Before Israel's exodus from Egypt, we see the faithful knew God's basic laws against murder, theft, sexual sin, etc. & that continued with the Old Covenant, given only to Israel. And it remained so til Jesus came & put the New Covenant into effect. That time is still ongoing, and will be til Jesus returns.
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, they didn't see cuz it aint happened yet!

    What's the difficulty there? What Scriptures deny such a gap? God mentions several times that He's in no hurry as we see it.
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Hoping/praying you get better quickly!
     
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