are liberals worst sinners then non liberals?

He's not a liberal Christian; he's not a Christian at all. I believe this distinction needs to be made. Lumping obviously non-believers together with those who are still Christians but have a slightly different perspective than yours doesn't represent a correct view of a different view of Christian theology.

 

Wouldn't you agree that scripture that directly relates to the second covenant is more important than the history and culture of the Jewish people in the OT?

 

You stripped it of the context that gave it its sense, Grasshopper. Joshua wrote "They've managed to turn a Savior who opposed wealth and violence into a supporter of capitalism and war."

I'll let Joshua defend his own assertion (he has no obligation to defend your misredaction of it), but I'll point out that according to the Bible pure religion is this: "to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." Rush Limbaugh is just as far removed from a spot-remover of the world as Bill Moyers. (IMHO)

Haruo

 

Matt 19:23
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
(NIV)

1 Tim 6:10
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
(NIV)

James 2:6-7
6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
(NIV)

James 5:1
1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
(NIV)

 

I bore the sword for the national government for over 20 years, most of that as a believer in Christ. When someone would ask me in a snide way what a Christian was doing in the military, I would say, "It is my ministry." Then I would read them the following:

Rom 13:1-7 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

Jesus and John the Baptist both interacted with a lot of military people, as did Peter and Paul. Not one was ever told to take off the uniform and quit their "ministry."

 

Yes, the rich have a burden to carry as believers, because there are many snares.

1 Tim 6:17-18 "Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,"

However, there were a few rich believers, and they apparently managed to serve the Lord.

Phile 1:1-7 "Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved friend and fellow laborer, 2 to the beloved Apphia, Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers, 5 hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints, 6 that the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledgment of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. 7 For we have great joy and consolation in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed by you, brother."

It is probably true that a large percentage of believers have come from the poor, but not all the poor have come! It is true that "not many" rich, etc. (1 Cor 1) have followed the Lord, but some have. The problem is covetousness, and I have known lots of poor folks with a covetous heart, and several rich folks with a heart bigger than their bank account, who loved the Lord in word and deed.

By the way, I am middle, middle.

Mat 27:57 "Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus."

Acts 16:14 "Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Acts 16:15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." So she persuaded us.

 

Joshua:
Peter, John and others were fishermen. Did they engage in fishing just for their own consumption?
No, they sold them; this is capitalism. Not only was this activity not condemned, but Jesus helped them catch more! No doubt this money was used to support, not only them, but families left behind
(We know that Peter, at least was married.)
As for war, unfortunately, sometimes you do have to go to war. A Johovah Witness I worked with once
didn't care if, instead of the Stars and Stripes on our flagpoles, there were Swastikas instead.
The U.S.,and allies, just rid Iraq of a tyrant who had already used WMD's and murdered thousands.

 

Note to all here, as a former Army Sergeant (Airborne!) I am not a pacifist. Nevertheless, the clear witness of the early church - consistent with the teachings of Jesus - is one of absolute pacifism. I've often suspected that, if I were a better Christian, I'd probably be a pacifist. I'm not, so I view war as a necessary evil.

I just don't pretend Jesus would agree.

Joshua

 

There is nothing in the scriptures to prove that Jesus was a "pacifist". He was and is long-suffering, though. If He was a 'pacifist", then He would not have created HELL.

 

He's not a liberal Christian; he's not a Christian at all. I believe this distinction needs to be made. Lumping obviously non-believers together with those who are still Christians but have a slightly different perspective than yours doesn't represent a correct view of a different view of Christian theology. </font>[/QUOTE]So are you basing saving faith (and the title of Christian ) based upon creedal impositions of what one must believe or not believe. I always thought those from a conservative perspective would tend to emphasize personal encounter with the living Christ that brings upon oneself a transformational experience. I find myself believing in Jesu Christ, fully human and fully God the one who has brought me into new relationship with God and still can affirm all of Dr. Bob's description of liberal Christian tenents.

I am disturbed. Which affirmation of my faith would you say I am lying about 1) my dependence upon the grace of God shown to me in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. or 2) what I find to be the necessary conclusion of the gospel. One that does not deny the above stated liberal perspective and in my experience suggests that living lives of love, championing justice for all people, heterosexuals, homsoexuals, transgendered, women, men, children, muslims, jews, and christians alike. I can find no dissonance and yet both perspectives are interdependent for me.
I love because I have been loved by Christ. I know Christ's love because I see it in those I encounter in the world.

jeffrey

 

I always thought Hell was the place for eternal torment; punishment for sin. Nothing to do with pacifism or not.

We can quote as many verses to support non-capitalism, a modern concept of money management. Jesus said, "Sell what you have and GIVE to the poor..."

Cheers,

Jim

A liberal or conservative believer comes to faith in exactly the same way.

 

i am not sure i can agree with your statement that a liberal and conservative believer comes to faith in the exact way. It depends on what the liberal believes in. if the liberal believes many doctrines that are contrary to Gods word then one would have to wonder in what Jesus he believes in.

 

To spell it out: through the Lord Jesus Christ, and no other way...that is what I said......we both come to faith the same way.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Jesus also said:

Have you done that???----- ;)

Or

Or this????? ;)

Context DOES alter "obvious" meaning, does it not?

 

He's not a liberal Christian; he's not a Christian at all. I believe this distinction needs to be made. Lumping obviously non-believers together with those who are still Christians but have a slightly different perspective than yours doesn't represent a correct view of a different view of Christian theology. </font>[/QUOTE]So are you basing saving faith (and the title of Christian ) based upon creedal impositions of what one must believe or not believe. I always thought those from a conservative perspective would tend to emphasize personal encounter with the living Christ that brings upon oneself a transformational experience. I find myself believing in Jesu Christ, fully human and fully God the one who has brought me into new relationship with God and still can affirm all of Dr. Bob's description of liberal Christian tenents.

I am disturbed. Which affirmation of my faith would you say I am lying about 1) my dependence upon the grace of God shown to me in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. or 2) what I find to be the necessary conclusion of the gospel. One that does not deny the above stated liberal perspective and in my experience suggests that living lives of love, championing justice for all people, heterosexuals, homsoexuals, transgendered, women, men, children, muslims, jews, and christians alike. I can find no dissonance and yet both perspectives are interdependent for me.
I love because I have been loved by Christ. I know Christ's love because I see it in those I encounter in the world.

jeffrey </font>[/QUOTE]I was saying that someone who:
denies the Bible is the Word of God, denies the diety of Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, vicarious atonement, bodily resurrection and ascension, isn't in my view, a Christian. I'm basing this mainly on hisdenial of the diety of Christ. My belief on the Lord Jesus Christ which caused me to have a personal relationship with Him is what has saved me. If Christ is not divine, He was not what He said He was and He does not have the power to save.

 

Let me back up a little.

First--are some sins worse than others--yes! Let's be real here! That's why God set up different levels of punishment in the O.T. law. Is physically commiting adultery worse than coveting one's neighbor's wife? Absolutely! Because the consequences are far worse. So then what was Jesus' point in seeming to equate the two? To show that we are all guilty of sin. To show that He judged the hearts of all men and found us all wanting. Any sin will bring condemnation--but that does not translate into making all sins equal.

As far as the main question goes, I would have to say that Christ denounced the conservative hypocrites of His day very soundly--and often--mainly because of their pride. I'm guessing we still have the equivalent of those men around today--who by their arrogance and hypocrisy disgrace the name of Christ every bit as much as do the liberals who deny Him and twist the scriptures to suit their own agenda.

If we focus all our attention on one side of error, we're likely to back into the other.

In Christ,

Tim

P.S. Dr. Bob--I'm assuming your comments about Amils to be merely a good-natured jest.

 

are liberals worst sinners then non liberals?

Only in the "Bible Belt!" :D