Actually, the disciples were part of the vine, but Christ reveals the True Vine, which distinguishes the two.
What is the vine that is not the True Vine? Last time I will ask, and henceforth return this to the topic of the OP, so I will not continue to respond to off-topic issues (unless they relate directly to the OP (sometimes we do have to explore other issues to answer the OP)).
God bless.
Are members of the Church left behind in the Rapture?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Feb 24, 2016.
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Are Members of the Church Left Behind at the Rapture?
Poll closed Feb 24, 2021.
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Yes
1 vote(s)33.3% -
No
2 vote(s)66.7%
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All I will say is that the branches are not the vine in either the vine or the True Vine. So I will have to disagree with the answer.
God bless. -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
At the moment of our salvation, when we appropriated Christ's substitutionary atonement, we were immediately, not eventually acceptable to God. We were immediately reconciled to God.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
This body will never be split into two parts. We are one body and Christ is the head (Ephesians 5:30). There will not be a mutilated and disfigured body presented to Christ. -
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Enjoy.
God bless. -
Non-believers are not part of the vine to be cut off. John 15:6
It is by abiding in Him and His words is how a believer is His disciple as being a part of that vine to bear fruit. -
May God bless you too. -
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Seems to me that a saved believer is held accountable for what he sows towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit.
Awful lot of warning for saved believers to just say that they would never be sowing after the flesh to receive condemnation.
Even James warned the brethren not to swear an oath unless they fall under condemnation. James 5:12
So like Paul taught excommunication in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, so will God do at the pre trib rapture because I believe that is when God will judge His House first. That is how a believer becomes a vessel unto dishonor in His House by being a castaway and thus left behind.
Even Paul mentioned the danger of not bringing his body under subjection which is more than a loss of rewards of crowns, but to become a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
2 Timothy 2:19-21 testifies to two kinds of vessels in His House; and I believe the vessels unto dishonor for not departing from iniquity are the castaways that will be received later on after the great tribulation.
1 Corinthians 3:10-17 shows that a believer will be judged in that day by fire by what he has built on that foundation; and anyone defiling the temple of God, him, God will destroy with physical death.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
So, yes. God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture. 1 Peter 4:17 I can trust Him as our faithful Creator to keep the souls of the saints that will suffer the fire & subsequent great tribulation.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I doubt any of these words are for unbelievers. -
God bless. -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
Notice in the passage I just referenced (Ephesians 4) that Paul encouraged these Christians to put away any works of the flesh that might be an issue for them; yet, he never warned them about being left behind when the Lord comes to catch His Bride away.
[COMMENT]Even Paul mentioned the danger of not bringing his body under subjection which is more than a loss of rewards of crowns, but to become a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27[/COMMENT]
Paul is simply referring to one's usefulness to the Lord - a being put on the shelf, if you will.
I do not have the time to go passage by passage and explain why I disagree with your conclusions. I feel that you have a forgone conclusion and you pack it with passages taken out of context or parables from which it is unwise to state acquire doctrine. -
2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 and 2 Thessalonians 3;14-15 has those wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that follow after the traditions taught of us to not be treated as the enemy, but admonish as brothers.
So there is excommunication & withdrawing from those saved believers not abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes which is why Jesus is telling His disciples to be ready.
Explain 2 Timothy 2:19-21 on how the vessel unto dishonor in His House are those believers in iniquity? How can any one in iniquity be received by the Holy God for the Marriage Supper? This is why I believe these saints left behind are those that did not depart from iniquity and are to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House. -
Luke 14:15-24
King James Version (KJV)
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
And this one:
Matthew 22:1-14
King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Is the context of the Rapture, Tribulation, or Kingdom?
God bless. -
Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
All children of God, dead or alive, will be changed. We will all be caught up together. There will be none left behind. That is my humble opinion based upon my understand of the Word of God. -
Luke 14:15-24
King James Version (KJV)
15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Matthew 22:1-14
King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Dead works can void faith and that is how a saved believer can be found without his wedding garment. -
;)
God bless. -
Your p.o.v. can still be maintained, but it is because in light of other scripture is why I see two groups as they that be Christ's at His coming also includes saints left behind for not abiding in Him as His disciples.
If you take in account the three angels that will set up the hour of temptation that will try all on the earth AFTER the rapture where after the first angel spread the everlasting gospel to everyone, then the second angel heralds the fall of Babylon which goes into detail in Revelation 18 th chapter as these saints are made to rest from their labors as their works follow them. ( hint: they were laboring in unbelief in coming short of that rest in Jesus like the works of catholicism or the commitment to follow Christ or the seven promises of the Promise Keepers program )
Now if they were new believers due to the everlasting gospel and then bam, Babylon falls soon after the pre trib rapture where the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more, because that call to the Marriage Supper has come and gone, how can these saints have any works following them when they have no time to do any such work? That is why I believe those saints left behind were the ones laboring in unbelief which Paul warned believers in Hebrews to fear ( Hebrews 4:1-3 ) So any work of iniquity that denies Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ) they will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ) but even though they believe not, He still abides in them, even those that just believe in His name ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) as promised ( John 1:12-13 & John 6:39 )
I submit that Paul was speaking in regards to those IN Christ as abiding in Him as His disciples to be the firstfruits which he was referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 as that "we all firstfruit" group when that happens. -
Consider, in the first quote, who those hearing this teaching would have viewed the cast to be. Would they have seen the Master as Christ? Or, would these Jews have placed this into a context of the Promised Kingdom.
Secondly, I again call your attention to the fact that those rejected are burned. This terminology does not speak of punishment or chastisement, but destruction. This correlates to Christ's teaching in Matthew 25 (as well as many similar parables and teachings which illustrate the Lord's Return.
The second, also, has a Jewish context, which I will illustrate with one section of, which cannot be applied to the Church at all:
Matthew 22:1-14
King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Now, what is in view here is not the Church in this Age, but Israel. We cannot in any way find a way to apply the slaying of God's servants by...Christians. Rather, in view is the same thing we see here:
Matthew 23:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
What the state of Israel will be when the Lord Returns is the same as it was when He was here before. Israel will enter the Tribulation a secular nation, and ony those who are saved at this time will enter into the Kingdom that still remains to be realized at the Lord's Return.
We can't create a picture of the Church slaying God's Servants, but we can see this in Israel.
But Christians do not perform dead works.
Consider:
Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
That is an Old Testament doctrine that we are not to lay again.
Christians are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, and this is what is meant when the Lord teaches that those who abide in Him will always produce fruit. And they are pruned to produce more fruit.
That principle is taught in the Parable of the soils as well:
Matthew 13:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Here as well...
Matthew 7:17-20
King James Version (KJV)
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Just because a Christian fails, doesn't man that they suffer a separation from the very God that indwells them. The result for the sinning Christian that refuses repentance is the same as it was in the Old Testament: on a physical basis. Paul wrote that many were sick and even dying for partaking of Communion unworthily.
But the fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God is just a Bible basic.
So we have to be careful about distinguishing between the temporal and eternal in Scripture.
And I would just remind you that we all start out as babes, and it is of a certainty that we are going to fail, going to sin, and always, always, always...going to need to continue to mature.
We don't expect young children to be flawless, and expect them to make mistakes. Now, if God demands that we train up our children in the way they should go, how much more is our Heavenly Father going to train us up in the way we should go?
God bless. -
More of a fire on the world than eternal fire.
Matthew 22:1-14
King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Invite to the Marriage Supper that neither the disciples nor ourselves have received yet?
I believe the parable when after the servants get killed, and then the Son was sent, I believe you are thinking of that one as pertaining to Israel's rejection of the Son.
But I do not see the above reference to what you are saying yet.
Matthew 23:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
I am sure you know that many believers are still seeking to save themselves too.
Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Matthew 13:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Actually, most of that parable testify to receiving the seed, but some did not always bear fruit as a disciple would.
Matthew 7:17-20
King James Version (KJV)
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
That is about recognizing a false prophet. Say for example; the fruit of a false prophet will be ecumenical in nature in gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. The tree versus fruit analogy is whatever the means or common denomenator is of that ecumenicalism, if it is even seen as producing an evil fruit, then that means.. as in that tree, is all bad.
Like.. Promise Keepers program....the commitment to follow Christ... ecumenical in nature, refusing to convert any from their denomenations and that includes Catholics, then that means is of evil as it places a yoke of bondage on believers that Jesus nor any of His disciples taught.
Or like the movements of the "Spirit" where signs and lying wonders come by means of seeking the Holy Spirit to come to receive after a sign like David Wilkerson bad mouths the "holy laughter" movement but he, himself, will pray for the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place to feel the Presence of the Holy Spirit IN the worship place. It is the same tree, therefore what David was experiencing was also the spirit of the antichrist.
I never said that God stops dwelling within them. They will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ) entrance for being in iniquity still ( Matthew 7:23 & Titus 1:15-16 ), unless they repent by His help & by His grace before the Bridegroom comes. He still abides in former believers, ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) but they also are naked of their wedding garment unless they look to Him for help to discern the lies that overthrow their faith to depart from that iniquity of unbelief.
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You are seeking to tie believers left behind with the unbelievers in the Tribulation and it just doesn't fit the teaching. Believers are represented by who enter, unbelievers by who is destroyed.
My friend, you are the only one who sees that, lol. You have Christians committing murder and being left behind.
Unless you believe that "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" is code for the Body of Christ.
And would you seriously have the Lord saying, "o Church..."
Just not reasonable.
Continued... -
Hark said: ↑I believe that reference in Matthew 23 is Israel rejecting the gospel as well as all the prophets before that gospel was sent.Click to expand...
Hark said: ↑But Christians do not perform dead works.
You may be surprise on how many believers get re-baptized again.
I am sure you know that many believers are still seeking to save themselves too.
Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,Click to expand...
The point here is that the Writer is listing doctrines of the Law, not Christian principles, and tells them do not lay them down again. They are to go on unto perfection/completion, or in other words...embrace Christ. That is the consistent warning of the Writer to his Hebrew Brethren.
Hark said: ↑There are believers who feel they can lose salvation and then believe they have to be saved again. It is apostasy, but it has and can happen.Click to expand...
Apostasy is a standing away from, basically, and when spoken of refers to those clearly shown to reject Christ. All passages used to teach loss of salvation impose a state of salvation into those who are clearly not saved.
Hark said: ↑I do not read scripture as saying that. If a person abiding in the vine is not bearing fruit, he will get cut off.Click to expand...
The text is clear, as are the other teachings just given: Christians will not fail to bear fruit, and it is by our fruit we are known. But no real point in reiterating, lol, I get it, you think believers can be left behind and burned up.
Hark said: ↑Matthew 13:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Actually, most of that parable testify to receiving the seed, but some did not always bear fruit as a disciple would.Click to expand...
Matthew 13:18-23
King James Version (KJV)
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Only the good ground presents salvation. And everyone saved produces fruit.
Hark said: ↑Matthew 7:17-20
King James Version (KJV)
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
That is about recognizing a false prophet. Say for example; the fruit of a false prophet will be ecumenical in nature in gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. The tree versus fruit analogy is whatever the means or common denomenator is of that ecumenicalism, if it is even seen as producing an evil fruit, then that means.. as in that tree, is all bad.
Like.. Promise Keepers program....the commitment to follow Christ... ecumenical in nature, refusing to convert any from their denomenations and that includes Catholics, then that means is of evil as it places a yoke of bondage on believers that Jesus nor any of His disciples taught.
Or like the movements of the "Spirit" where signs and lying wonders come by means of seeking the Holy Spirit to come to receive after a sign like David Wilkerson bad mouths the "holy laughter" movement but he, himself, will pray for the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place to feel the Presence of the Holy Spirit IN the worship place. It is the same tree, therefore what David was experiencing was also the spirit of the antichrist.Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with an ecumenical scenario.
And it still has the genuine article producing good fruit, whereby they are to be recognized, just as the false is.
And this is the same principle seen in 2 Peter 2. And just like here, those who teach loss of salvation convert those who are clearly not believers into believers, that they can teach that believers can lose salvation.
Continued...
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