I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I have a question for the guys:
1. Are the European Doctorates superior to the American and SA doctorates? If no, here's another question,
2. Why do we then gravitate toward the Europen doctoral holders, Carson, Grudem, Piper, and so on?
Are the European Doctorates...
Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by TCGreek, Sep 21, 2007.
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I don't think that they are. They are definately more research oriented and less classroom directed than the American degree (not the SA).
The names you mentioned all write a lot and happen to have European degrees.
Playing off of your post, my pet peeve is that the American doctorates (especially at the seminaries) require far more course work than the European doctorate. I know of one person who earned his doctorate at St. Andrews without having to take German or French or Latin.
Having learned Hebrew and Greek, is it really necessary for a Ph.D. student in NT/OT/Systematics to have to learn another two languages - languages he will most likely never use (German/French)? -
Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Comparison to SA Doctorates
Hey to all who seek truth and light!!!:thumbs:
This was just pasted one thread over. It could be used for comparison purposes if needed.
Prospectus for SATS doctoral program
This e-mail message was received by several people from another discussion forum from the SATS admissions office this week:
SOUTH AFRICAN THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY'S DOCTORAL PROGRAMME
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Doctoral programme. Attached please find the application form for your perusal. We will not be able to enrol students until we have received the Registration Certificate from the Department of Education. In the meantime, you are welcome to submit your full application for review by the Admissions Committee. We will do our best to enrol you as soon as we receive the certificate. Further details will be sent in time.
Options
Our Doctoral programme is a research-based programme consisting of a dissertation. There is NO coursework in our DTh programme. The Admissions Committee holds the right to assign further reading or theological subjects should a candidate not meet the necessary requirements. Our doctoral programme offers you a choice of two fields of study, Biblical Studies or Practical Theology. You will conduct your research under the supervision of one or two experts in the chosen field of study. Our doctoral supervisors have been carefully selected to provide you with the high academic standards and the levels of service excellence for which we have become known.
Dissertation
On enrolment you will be required to complete RES6600 Theological Research Methodology, a course which culminates in the submission of your dissertation proposal to the Postgraduate Committee. If and when your title is accepted, under the guidance of your supervisor candidates will be required to write approximately 200-250 page dissertation, (approximately 72,000-80,000 words, 12 point font, one-and-a-half spacing). There is no coursework and no examination. All work is submitted and returned via email, except the final bound copies. The full details pertaining to the formatting of your dissertation are contained in RES6600. Your dissertation will be assessed by two independent External Examiners, as well as an Internal Examiner, your supervisor, and if it is successful, you will be awarded the Doctor of Theology degree at the next Graduation Ceremony. Should you obtain a mark of 75% or above, the degree will be awarded cum laude. The maximum duration of this programme, which is at level 8 on the National Qualifications Framework, is six years.
On achieving this qualification, students will be able to:
1. Identify, understand, interpret, integrate, apply and communicate a body of new knowledge (original research) in interaction with existing knowledge (current state of research in the field of study).
2. Apply logical, theoretical, analytic, creative and systematic thinking, effectively to solve a range of problems within a focused research context.
3. Exhibit the ability to identify and address issues of ethical action and social responsibility in the field of research.
4. Apply principles of sound research practice in collecting, organizing and evaluating information in terms of a critical understanding of relevant research methodologies, techniques and technologies.
5. Be aware of, and be able to interact constructively with, multicultural and multi -faith communities, from a theological perspective.
6. Apply the insights of one or more disciplines to identify and critique issues of church and society.
Entrance requirements
To register for a Doctoral programme prospective students must have an appropriate Masters Degree (or equivalent) in an appropriate field, from an accredited institution.
Certified (notarized) proof of the above should accompany the application form, together with a certified (notarized) copy of your ID or valid Passport.
The Seminary offers a free, no obligation evaluation of your transcripts, which can either be faxed to us at +27 11 234-4445 or scanned and sent as email attachments to postgraduate@sats.edu.za. We will initiate a response to your request within two days of receipt.
Pricing
Research Proposal Tuition Fee (a max. of 12 months) R14000 ($2000)
The candidate has a maximum 12 months to complete the research proposal, after which the applicant’s registration lapses.
Thereafter, students are required to pay the annual tuition fee for each year enrolled, with a minimum payment of four consecutive years (including the proposal year). Should a fifth or subsequent year be necessary to complete the programme, the annual tuition fee will be levied.
Fees are increased annually in January.
FWIW!
sdg!:thumbs:
rd -
SATS new doctorate
Perhaps Bill Grover (UZThD), the new adjunct professor at SATS, could speak to language requirements for the D.Th at SATS. My sense is that the language requirements are driven by the focus of the doctorate. Perhaps there are less language requirements for those majoring in practical theology than for those focussing on Biblical Studies. I don't think French and German studies are required, but I might be wrong about that?
Tom -
Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Pats Fan Response
PF,
Good to hear you on the thread.
I talked with SATS via email a month or so ago. They have not finalized the ThD/DTh program as yet. It is supposed to, as I understood it, to be through all of the governmental hoops and they would be able to offer it after the first of the year.
But U Z ThD might know some more information. He continues to amaze me with his knowledge and insights.
sdg!:thumbs:
rd -
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http://www.tms.edu/facprofile.asp?profid=7 -
3. Then it can be a combination of both school and student, but then even some students who attend substandard school can perform exceptionally well. -
I don't have much real firsthand knowledge here but have read a good deal of the books and dissertation monographs by lots of professors. It seems that the lines separating conservative and liberal are less distinct in the European professors. I quite like Richard Bauckham, Martin Hengel, Larry Hurtado and many others. They are conservative for sure - but they may not necessarily "tow the line" on particular issues as it seems that the American profs are more likely to do. Does that make any sense??
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Good info, Bill. I have a lot of good feelings about SATS. I think they are going to really be a force in the international Evangelical theological community before too long. I had a chance to examine one of the readers used for an undergraduate systematic theology class and talk to a SATS student during a visit to South Africa in the summer of 2006. (The reader had exerpts from Erickson and Grudem, I believe). I wish I had had a chance to to visit SATS, but I was on the east coast in a city called Durban.
Did you say the requirements for the M.Th at SATS appeared more rigorous than the Th.M thesis requirements at Western? Please keep us posted on your impressions of SATS after you start teaching.
Tom -
Did you say the requirements for the M.Th at SATS appeared more rigorous than the Th.M thesis requirements at Western? Please keep us posted on your impressions of SATS after you start teaching.
Tom[/quote]
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No I don't mean rigor in general. I refer only to a comparison of the one course on research I took as part of the ThM in Biblical Studies at Western Seminary in Oregon (1992-1994) to the SATS course RES5300. In that comparison, the SATS course is far more substantial, and I think unquestionably more effectual to ready one to research, than was my course at Western. -
I researched this over the early part of the summer. I think it depends on where you get your education, and what you put into it. Some of the European programs are not as rigorous, according to those I asked. They are more degree mills. I actually emailed out of the blue some respected OT names that I could find and was discouraged from going the European, non-resident route.
I was encouraged to find an expert in the field I want to specialize in and go there to study under him. But that would mean a resident degree and I am not that interested in that route at this point.
I wonder about the SATS one. At first glance, it doesn't look substantial but that is just me reading what was said here at first glance. Even the respected European doctorates require at least some residency. I was looking into the University of Edinburgh and they require three months, and then periodic trips, which was tempting.
To me, I am not sure that a non-classwork doctorate makes a lot of sense. It basically makes you an expert in the narrow field of your dissertation, it would seem, rather than making one an expert in a narrow field, plus competent in other fields as well.
So this thread is intriguing to me ... -
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I think a good foundation is vital to do a research doc. Mine was BA,ThB,MA,MDiv (equiv) and ThM- 8 or 9 years all in Bib/Theol. Then I did a research ThD. SATS is of the opinion that six years can be sufficient. If it is not, other work may be required of the candidate.
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Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
U Z ThD Additional Response
To all who are interested:
I agree with Bill completely.
To do my DM I had a "Diploma of Theology," later to be renamed the Associate of Divinity that was built on the 96 sem. h.r MDiv of Mid America Baptist Seminary. I then received a BS "Bible College Degree" from Mid South Bible College now Crichton College liberal arts Christian college. I then did an MA(R) from Harding University's Graduate School of Religion. Then I did my Master of Divinity from The Southen Baptist Theological Seminary with a focus on Higher Education and Biblical Languages. Then I did 39 PhD level hours from The University of Memphis in Rhetoric and Communication Theory and their cognates. All of these were HEAVY HEAVY on research. All of these were "intro" to the doctoral work that I would do at The University of the South's (Sewanee) School of Theology.
There is a certain "apprenticeship" that is appropriate for doctoral level research. As my colleague Bill Grover has argued in other forums, a Master's degree that has a major research paper such as a thesis is nearly a MUST to do good doctoral work. The skills gained are absolutely mandatory if one is to do excellent work on the doctoral level, it seems to me. IMHO!:laugh:
sdg!:thumbs:
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PL, Would you be willing to share more about your exploration of the European doctorates. Id be interested in hearing more about which schools seemed the best and which seemed to lack rigor. Thanks.
Tom -
Part of what I did was email five well-respected OT people (Goldingay, Day, Longman, Van Gemeren, and Reimer; I think I emailed one other that didn't respond). Longman said that teaching positions are so few in the US that very few will hire someone with a distance ed PhD. He said he did not know of one distance ed program that he would recommend. Van Gemeren said essentially the same thing. Day is in England at Oxford and recommended residence (that's all they do). Goldingay was the only one with even a tepid recommendation of it, but he was not familiar with current UK programs. Reimer said that Edinburgh would do some arrangements, but would require some residence (I found out it was three months at the beginning and periodic meetings with your advisor).
The University of Edinburgh seemed the most viable for me if I were going to go that route. In the field of my interest, they had some good profs.
Most require an MPhil before you can do the DPhil, or something similar to that. i can't even remember which programs I looked at now. I looked at the UK programs as well as a couple of continental programs.
In my research, I just could not find anything compelling at that point. But part of that is perhaps my desire to pastor. At this point, I don't really want to be an expert in OT; I want to be a better pastor and better leader.
So I am rethinking my plans, while enrolling in two doctoral programs currently (a DMin and a non-resident PhD that does involve classwork). Where are you doing your DMin Tom? -
Thanks for the info, PL. I wonder why the emphasis on residency? IMHO doctoral courses are not that different than masters level courses; the papers are longer; you read more and have a few more mini projects to work on. I'm not convinced that a lot of courses make or break a doctoral program. Perhaps residencies are valued for the increased contact with faculty and fellow students. I'm convinced that some of that can be achieved via distance learning. SATS, e.g. has an awesome reputation for its communication with students. Their faculty members strive to be highly communicative. I'm working on a D.Min at Ashland Seminary in Ohio. Half of my cohort of 14 graduated this past June. I'm one of the stragglers. I'm thoroughly enjoying it though. Did you say you are working on two doctorates? Tell me more about that. Blessings.
Tom
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