1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Are Those Who Die in Infancy Saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Piper, Aug 29, 2023.

  1. Piper

    Piper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Baptist
    David, in 2 Sam 12:23 said, concerning his dead infant son,
    "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”
    He knows he is going into God's presence, and his infant son will be there, therefore he is saved.

    There are some through history who have seemed to posit that infants, since they are born sinful, if they die, suffer eternal punishment.

    What are your thoughts? I believe that they are saved. I do not know the exact instrumentality, but I do believe that Edwards seemed to avoid it in "The Doctrine of Original Sin".
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,719
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. They have taken the Roman Catholic version of original sin and applied it without considering the character of God.

    Knowing Who God is, I think you are quite right to have confidence that they are sustained in life and goodness by God. They are safe with Jesus and will be resurrected with the rest of us at the restoration of all things.

    Yes, many sharp minds realize the problem, but they are so committed to their theological system that they would rather allow God to be known as a moral monster than to speak a word on the goodness of God.

    I believe we can be confident that God will do what is good and generous with humankind. All those who can endure a world made right by God will likely be saved. Those who cannot bear the manifest presence of the goodness of God will be destroyed (an act of mercy) in the Lake of Fire.
     
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,363
    Likes Received:
    932
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have always gone with what the Bible says in the verse you cited.

    David said that he would "go" to his son. That means one of two things:
    • The baby was in hell and David would spend eternity in hell with him.
    • Or the baby was with God and David would spend eternity in God's presence with him.
    I've never understood how people who believe that babies go to hell dismiss this scripture.

    It's not rocket science.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  4. Piper

    Piper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Amen, sister.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,621
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mark 10;14-15, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

    Luke 18:16-17, ". . . But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. . . . "

    Matthew 19:14, ". . . But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. . . ."
    Matthew 18:3, ". . . And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . ."

    John 3:3-4, ". . . Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . . ."

    What is not understood, Jesus' teaching for the new birth was first taught in Matthew's account and then James, James 1:17, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

    It was not untill John's account we get Nicodemus' question.

    Because of the general redemption little children who die as little children are safe.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,621
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The nether world/Sheol/Hades has two places. An upper and lower place. Luke 16:19-31. Abraham to the rich man, ". . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
    Moses, Deuteronomy 32:22. David one of the prophets, Psalms 86:13, "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell."
    See also Acts 2:27-31 regarding David and Christ.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,845
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As stated above when quoting Mark 10:14-15, Jesus said suffer the little children to come to me, for such is the Kingdom of Heaven.

    What if…. Jesus wasn’t using an analogy?

    We know that, historically, many, perhaps most, people die before they get to adulthood. This may still be true in some countries today…

    and….. just to give you something to think about… if life begins at conception (it does imo) we know, biologically that up to 70% of fertilized eggs never implant in the womb and are lost in the cycle (don’t remember where I read this, but it has stuck with me)….

    Is it possible that the overwhelming majority of people in heaven never made it to adulthood, or perhaps were never born at all?

    Additionally, I like what Luther said. Just because infants cannot express faith in a way we can understand, doesn’t mean they cannot respond to God Holy Spirit with faith. It is, after all, a spiritual miracle.

    Something to think about

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,154
    Likes Received:
    1,544
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes they are saved!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,419
    Likes Received:
    1,217
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are other possibilities.

    Heaven or hell are not mentioned in the verse.
    The verse simply concerns the afterlife.

    The verse touches on what is unknown following life.
    David will die just as his infant son died, they will end up just the same.
    And there’s nothing he can do about it.

    David either displays humanistic fatalism or a trust in God’s controlling power.
    Neither worry or grief can change what will happen.

    Do infants go to heaven? The Scriptures are silent.
    But I know that the character of God means he will do what is right and just.

    Rob
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,363
    Likes Received:
    932
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, quite a percentage of newly fertilized eggs don't make it to the implantation stage or else they implant in the wrong place.

    Here's a link to all the known reasons that these new life forms don't implant. The mother doesn't even know she has conceived and won't know. It's a very interesting read.

    Implantation Difficulties: Increase the Success of Implantation (fertilitytips.com)


    And yes - from the time of conception until the oldest person has drawn their last breath, their soul is in God's hands. He can reach anyone at any time.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,363
    Likes Received:
    932
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, it's not a hill I am willing to die upon - I am willing to fight on it - LOL!

    I believe the "afterlife" is only one of two places. Whether or not David understood that, I can't say.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,845
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Faith:
    Baptist
    King David was comforted by the knowledge he would go to his son. He worshipped God. That doesn’t sound like humanistic fatalism.

    Peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,845
    Likes Received:
    1,644
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The link says about 40% of fertilized eggs do not implant. I knew the number was high, but was off somewhat. Also, I didn’t know fertilization occurs in the tube, not the womb. Thanks for the info.

    peace to you
     
  14. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,719
    Likes Received:
    781
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The exact statistics are in some dispute, but the figure is generally accepted to be between 60%-75% of embryos that fail to properly implant or remain implanted after two weeks. It is a shockingly high number.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    15,621
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe infants who die are saved by Christ.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,891
    Likes Received:
    2,349
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you have a Savior?... Then the infants do too... To deny original sin is to deny the infants a Savior... Its what we are that determines what we do, not what we do that determines what we are... If an infant was grown to maturity, they would still be a sinner just like we are, not only in their Adamic sin nature but in practice too... The Apostle Paul named it and claimed it, he was a saved sinner... And notice he doesn't say was, past tense but am present tense... There is no doubt that he is saved but he is a sinner also, declared from his own mouth... Brother Glen:)

    1 Timothy 1: 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
     
    #16 tyndale1946, Aug 29, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,363
    Likes Received:
    2,862
    Faith:
    Baptist
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,347
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Saved from what?

    Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

    Sin is an action of the will with knowledge and forethought and consciousness that it is wrong.

    We are not in the dark about sin. Here is the progression in a nutshell.

    Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

    Here is a marvelous truth. God is not at this present time imputing sin to anyone while we live because of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. God has been propitiated and reconciled to sinners because Jesus Christ, the perfect sacrifice has substituted himself in our place and the judge has seen the death penalty carried out for us all. Now, the command to every sinner is to be reconciled to God through faith in the person who sacrificed himself for us, Jesus Christ. I have God's word on this and I believe it with all my heart and say "praise God."

    2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation)

    Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos = planet): but now once in the end of the world (aion = age = end of the Mosaic law for the Hebrews) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    I totally get this. So, the answer is, little children who do not know their right hand from their left need no savior.
     
    #18 JD731, Aug 29, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2023
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,154
    Likes Received:
    1,544
    Faith:
    Baptist
    IE… OP’s, commonly referred to here as Calvinist. Not vilifying them though, MLJ, Spurgeon, Montgomery, Kennedy etc we’re all wonderful Christian’s and I learned much from them.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,742
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) Does scripture teach "eternal punishment." Yes
    2) Does scripture teach "eternal torment" for all those condemned? Debatable, certainly for Satan and His co-horts..
    3) Are babies condemned already, at conception? Yes, for unbelief, John 3:18.
    4) Does that mean babies who have done nothing good or bad suffer torment for their non-deeds? Nope
    5) Does 2 Samuel 12:23 teach David's child went to heaven? Nope, the baby went to Sheol, the abode of the human spirits of the dead.
     
Loading...