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Featured Babies In Hell 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Feb 5, 2019.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Poll question from 1st thread:

    Are people born 'hellbound' due to Adam's transgression?

    When I 'imagine' hell the incomprehensible comes to mind, infinity in a torture chamber. God is just and righteous and it's inconceivable to me that He would create a living being, allow that being to exist mere minutes, and then send it to the eternal flame. We all agree that God is just and righteous, and even most of the hellers are repulsed (except @SovereignGrace) at the notion and attempt to keep God just and righteous in their 'imagination with ‘yes born hellbound but no’ reasoning like:

    "I voted yes that we are born lost in sin and bound for hell although God exempts us until we each reach the age of reason..." (yes but no)

    "I believe all people are hell bound because of Adam's actions but no I won't give up a belief in an age of accountability...." (yes but no)

    “I believe that infants are hell-bound due to Adam's transgression, but I do not believe that those who die in infancy ever arrive there.” (yes but no)

    “We do know that God always does that which is right. If God can create the Heavens and the Earth why can He not implant faith into the unborn? He is the God of the impossible. Yes I believe that God implants faith into infants” (yes but no)

    "Making His Gospel known to the soul in the womb takes no more of a supernatural act than His making His Gospel known to you." (yes but no)

    “I voted Yes, I do not believe they will be actually babies in neither Heaven nor Hell.” (yes but no)

    IMO, most if not all of these hellers don’t really believe ‘hellbound at birth’ and should have voted no in the poll. We know God is consistently an advocate for the innocent throughout the scripture and judges those who sin against the innocent.

    15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
    29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20

    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

    So, according to the Calvinist 'Adam narrative' when the books are opened infants that die who have no works of their own will be judged by Adam’s works, right?

    I reject the Calvinist constructed ‘Adam narrative’. I’ll stick with the text of scripture. We’re all going to be judged according to our works, not Adam’s. The atonement wiped the slate clean from Adam’s transgression - Romans 5:18.

    The righteous judgment of God who will render to every man according to his works. Not Adam's.
     
    #1 kyredneck, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    @JonC hit the nail on the head in the last thread:

    "It is appointed men once to die and then the Judgment. The wages of sin is death.

    IMHO an infant experiences the "wages of sin" (the curse) and then the Judgment. I do not see an infant as "guilty" in this regard. "
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately comes down to a name being or not being in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

    Jesus taught rearding "little children," ". . . for of such is the kingdom of God. . . ." -- Mark 10:14.

    Well, some how their names must be in the book of life. Infants for example, prior to death as an infant, are not of any age to choose on their own.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately comes down to a name being or not being in the book of life, Revelation 20:15, ". . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . . ."

    Jesus taught regarding "little children," ". . . for of such is the kingdom of God. . . ." -- Mark 10:14.

    Well, some how their names must be in the book of life. Infants for example, prior to death as an infant, are not of any age to choose on their own.
     
    #4 37818, Feb 5, 2019
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    My position from the previous thread:

    "This is what I was taught growing up Southern Baptist, that children were innocent until the age of accountability but I never heard it explained with scripture until I met the most influential sovereign grace Bible teacher in my life, Arthur Crawford. The non-denominational group (also sovereign grace) I was part of at that time held to ‘innocent till the age of accountability’. I believe Donald Barnhouse in his Romans commentaries was in agreement with Arthur Crawford in recognizing from scripture a universal aspect of the atonement.

    18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5

    9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

    ...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord.

    No doubt this view will send some hardshell Calvinists into convulsions but it does relieve the Calvinist tension with other ‘universal passages’ such as:

    10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. 1 Tim 4

    9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. Jn 1 "
     
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    @SovereignGrace wrote:

    "All are born dead in sin, as Psalms 51 and Psalms 58 state. Also, throw in Romans 5:12ff and 1 Corinthians 15:22. You are averring Pelagianism bruh."

    18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.
    20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming. 1 Cor 15

    I agree. It's clear to me in this context that the 'all' in v 22 are 'in Christ'. But:

    15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
    16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
    17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
    18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5

    ...what reason can you give for Paul's switch here from 'the many' to 'all men'? I see a distinction being made there between 'the many' and 'all men'.

    10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. 1 Tim 4

    ...just as I see a distinction being made here between 'all men' and 'them that believe'.

    He bought the whole field, but He particularly bought the treasure that was hidden in that field. "The Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe."
     
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I leave you alone on this my Brother. I gave my view and scriptures to support it.

    Unless you see the federal headship of both Adams in Romans 5:12-19, you are stuck with your Pelagianism, that avers babies been born innocent, tabula rasa...
     
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  8. Forever Settled

    Forever Settled Active Member

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    The reason we see such a rise in Pelagianism is because of the Rise of humanism in our society.

    Humanism invades the Churches disguised as Pelagianism.
     
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well I apologize for not being able to keep up on the 1st thread. Dad got needy, wife injured her foot, daughter has the flu, all which involves me, and, my pea brain doesn't work as swuft as it used to.
     
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  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I am neither. What I have presented magnifies the Atonement, not man.
     
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If you single out 1 Timothy 2:4, yes, you win. Just like 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, John 3:16, &c. But you can’t take one verse, tear it out, then say, “Hear! I win!”

    1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions andthanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.[1 Timothy 2]

    Now, what is a mediator? He interecedes between two(or more) ppl, attempting to bring unity between them. He is also called an interceder. This mediator/interceder brings reconciliation between all opposing persons involved.

    Jesus was the mediator, not for all mankind, but for His sheep. Look at the role of the OT high priest, which typified the Christ. Did this high priest mediate for all mankind indiscriminately? Absolutely not. Did he make sacrifices for all mankind indiscriminately? Absolutely not. Was the scapegoat in Leviticus 16(which typified the Christ) responsible for carrying away all mankind’s sins and iniquities into the wilderness? Absolutely not.

    The OT high priest interceded for God’s chosen ppl the Jews. Yes, there were a smattering of Gentiles brought in hither and yon, yet they had their limitations of worship, seeing they could only go so far into the temple as proselytes.

    However, the Christ tore than veil down, and all who are saved make up the true Jews. But Jesus is not a mediator for all mankind indiscriminately.
     
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  12. Forever Settled

    Forever Settled Active Member

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    No.....you Demagnify the atonement.......you attempt to apply the atonement to people who will end up in hell....therefore the atonement is worthless to save.......the atonement did NOT erase their sin.
     
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Sorry to hear this. Praying all is well now.

    Swuft! Priceless!
     
  14. Forever Settled

    Forever Settled Active Member

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    1Tim. 2:4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (KJV)

    "every single individual" isn't saved, so obviously such was not the "will" of God. And since God has foreknowledge of everyone's eternal destiny, why would God "desire" something that He already knows will never happen?!

    All don’t mean All in every case in fact most cases All don’t mean All.
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Little children are not born sinless. They are not yet of the age to discern good and evil. Christ either died for all of them or some of them or none of them.
     
  16. Forever Settled

    Forever Settled Active Member

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    Really ?
    They are capable of attempted murder while IN the womb Sinless and innocent...Not hardly !

    Genesis 25:22
    22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.

    You might want to look into that verse a little... because it shows your theory about babies is wrong.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I'm not out 'to win', Willis. In fact I'm pulling a @HankD in advocating a view that I'm not necessarily cemented in, an alternative, playing the 'devil's advocate'. See this. Note the last sentence. The 'theory' (Federal Headship is a theory also) that the Atonement eliminated Adam's curse for the entire race and all are now born innocent until they themselves 'sin after the likeness of Adam`s transgression' explains 'innocent until guilty' for children. The tension revealed in the first thread with all the 'yes we're all born hellbound but infants don't go to hell' votes goes away with this view.

    Absolutely. Mediator.

    10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5

    Ok, I agree. Not mediator for the natural man, but, He was 'the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world’.

    NOUN
    an absence of preconceived ideas or predetermined goals; a clean slate.

    Thanks for the compliment, that’s exactly my approach to scripture. It’s a shame that more of you ‘Reformed types’ don’t adhere to your own ‘sola scripture’ mantra and exercise your right to private judgement as espoused by the original reformers and think outside of your box.
     
  18. Forever Settled

    Forever Settled Active Member

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    If he took the sins of the world Away why do some men die IN their sins.....Did Jesus miss some sin when he took it away ?

    John 8:24
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
     
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  19. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Since this is a continuation of the previous "Babies in Hell" discussion, I would like to address some points made by @percho. If it's against the rules to carry over discussions, I do apologize.

    1 Thess. 4:16 is about our resurrected bodies, to be sure. You also quoted Ro. 6:5, which is also about our resurrection. These verses don't go into when we will be resurrected, though. I still contend that those who died in the Faith before Christ was resurrected were in "Paradise" aka "Abraham's Bosom", as you seem to allude to in your post earlier.

    David was in Abraham's Bosom, but is now in Heaven. Eph. 4:8-10 tells us that the Old Testament saints were released to enter Heaven. 2 Cor. 5:8 tells us that to be "absent from the body" is to be at home with the Lord. This is where David's son, and David himself are now.
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...die in your sins....
     
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