Wonder if Skan would tend to see it as the Gospel "becoming the word of God" to save us once we receive it by faith?
that its power we have to activate ourselves, as we determine what the result of it hitting us is directly?
Arminian Aberrations
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Jan 28, 2012.
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I've been asking all those who are "against" to put forward their own positive statement of faith and doctrine. So far, ONE has responded that I've noticed. Funny thing was the other anti-cals jumped on him for doing so becasue some of HIS points of doctrine did not match their own (which they refuse to publish, but the attacks come nevertheless).
So, here goes again... Publish a positive doctrinal framework for the anti-cal position instead of just being anti-cal. -
If so, You need to stop sticking your head in the said with "SOME" of what transpires in the anti-arminian movement. That is what I'm calling it now. :smilewinkgrin:
We, non-Cals, make PLENTY of positive affirmations of our doctrinal views. There are countless statements of faith, commentaries and the like from non-Calvinistic scholars. There are countless posts from me and many others regarding our POSITIVE view on election, our interpretation of passages such as Eph 1 and Romans 9, etc. The fact that you apparently have your head in the sand as to our positive affirmation is not my fault. -
Do arms view faith as inherit in all peoples ?
What did the fall of Adam, if anything, do to free will of mankind? -
He didn't preach the gospel. He told elements of truth contained in the gospel, but he didn't preach the gospel. Where did he mention the cross, atonement, resurrection and call them to repentance and faith? What kind of gospel doesn't mention those elements? ...one that hasn't been fulfilled yet?
What did Jesus say? He told them to drink his blood and eat his flesh without much explanation as to what that meant. He was clearly provoking them to leave...He was trying to drive them away...everyone of them except the 12 who the Father had given to HIM. The gospel wasn't even understood by the apostles until after he was raised up and that is when Jesus sent them to preach it into all the world. Peter preaches and 2000 of the same Jews who cried out 'crucify him' come to faith. Why? BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING BLINDED. It wasn't even until much later when Paul is called to go to the Gentiles and Peter has his white sheet dream that the gospel is sent to the Gentiles which was God's means of 'granting them faith.'
If God does nothing in the heart of a man before he "chooses" to believe, then it was outward. You have no other choice.Click to expand...
You keep saying that, but you're lying.Click to expand...
When pressed about this "powerful, spirit wrought" enabling, it turns out that you're describing a man, unchanged, who was presented with a choice, in the exact same way I would put the choice of white milk or chocolate to my daughter. There is no enabling, no power is exercised, no work is being done.Click to expand...
In my Gospel, which is Christ's Gospel, a man must be born again, and he does not birth himself. Now there is a powerful work of the Spirit. A real one, and one performed not by the will of man.Click to expand... -
glfredrick said: ↑I am in agreement with you on Christ fulfilling the Law. He did.
We should discuss whether the "gospel" was because "we could not understand" or whether it is what it purports to be in Scripture -- the kerygma of "good news" of what Christ has actually done.Click to expand...
You seem to take it from an historical record into some "act" that stands alone as powerful in its own right instead of words that represent actions done by Christ. I suspect a bit of Barth in there somewhere...Click to expand...
Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are spirit and life." And He himself is even referred to as the Word. You can't underestimate the power of HIS words...even if brought to the world through broken vessels. And Jesus even told us in John 12 that it is by his words that we will be judged...why wouldn't it be by those same truths that we can be set free and saved?
And, we do agree that "God does something to help us believe." We seriously disagree on what that "something" is.Click to expand...
I suspect for you it is "words" (based on your interpretation of "the gospel" above) while for us it is actual atonement and imputed righteousness, justification, regeneration, adoption, effectual call, and yes, election into all the above.Click to expand... -
glfredrick said: ↑I know you are in jest, but whatever floats your boat. By now you know why I am saying what I am saying and it is not pure perjorative.
I've been asking all those who are "against" to put forward their own positive statement of faith and doctrine. So far, ONE has responded that I've noticed. Funny thing was the other anti-cals jumped on him for doing so becasue some of HIS points of doctrine did not match their own (which they refuse to publish, but the attacks come nevertheless).
So, here goes again... Publish a positive doctrinal framework for the anti-cal position instead of just being anti-cal.Click to expand...
Here is a good acrostic I like, don't fall out of your chair, I am a TULIP.
T Totality of mankind are spiritually depraved in their fallen spiritual condition as a consequence of Adam's sin.
U Unrequited action of God's grace has acted to redeem and restore mankind through Jesus Christ without express or implied contingency of such divine action.
L Limitlessness of God's redemptive and restorative action in Jesus Christ makes His work universally available and applicable to all mankind.
I Individual response of receptivity of faith allows God's grace action to be personally efficacious in the new spiritual creation of the Christian.
P Preservation of the Christian in this relationship is divinely enacted in accord with the perseverance of faithful receptivity of God's grace action in a dynamic continuum unto eternity. -
Skandelon said: ↑Yep, because I suspect a similar response....a bunch of out of context quotes that don't say what they are being accused of saying... :smilewinkgrin:Click to expand...
I did not do "similar" to what I did before. Webdog doesn't particularly care for the fact that he got played a little bit, but the choices to respond or not were always his. I just asked the questions and he responded.
Skandelon said: ↑For you, does sticking one's head in the sand equal not responding to every random disagreement of those who happen to agree with me on one soteriological point?Click to expand...
I know you read that thread. We were going back and forth until Webdog wrote what he wrote, then CRICKETS. Yeah, right...
Skandelon said: ↑I never said that. Please quote my actual words in context or leave my name out of it.Click to expand...
Skandelon said: ↑We, non-Cals, make PLENTY of positive affirmations of our doctrinal views. There are countless statements of faith, commentaries and the like from non-Calvinistic scholars. There are countless posts from me and many others regarding our POSITIVE view on election, our interpretation of passages such as Eph 1 and Romans 9, etc. The fact that you apparently have your head in the sand as to our positive affirmation is not my fault.Click to expand...
If any, save Mandym, have done so, I've not seen it and I read quite a bit around here. Just point me to the links and I'll be satisfied. -
glfredrick said: ↑I know you read that threadClick to expand...
But you did in the other thread! You specifically wrote that the movement was "anti-Calvinism" and you know you did.Click to expand...
I said the unifying point of agreement is our rejection of the belief that God preselects certain individuals to effectually save, but that we certainly have other positive affirmations of faith that include but are not limited to our views on salvation, election, predestination and the like. Is that what you mean?
I'm not talking about off-the-board "scholars" and you know it. I am specifically asking people who post on this board to publish their doctrinal framework in a positive manner (in other words, not just an "against" response to someone else's doctrine)Click to expand...
I can recall dozens of other positive affirmations of our beliefs.... Do you need me to list some for you or would you rather me save you the embarrassment? ;) -
glfredrick said: ↑But in the place where you asked that, an individual Webdog in this instance, actually responded publicly to a number of clarifying questions where you and everyone else is free to read the responses in context.
I did not do "similar" to what I did before. Webdog doesn't particularly care for the fact that he got played a little bit, but the choices to respond or not were always his. I just asked the questions and he responded.Click to expand... -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporterquantumfaith said: ↑Here is a good acrostic I like, don't fall out of your chair, I am a TULIP.
T Totality of mankind are spiritually depraved in their fallen spiritual condition as a consequence of Adam's sin.
U Unrequited action of God's grace has acted to redeem and restore mankind through Jesus Christ without express or implied contingency of such divine action.
L Limitlessness of God's redemptive and restorative action in Jesus Christ makes His work universally available and applicable to all mankind.
I Individual response of receptivity of faith allows God's grace action to be personally efficacious in the new spiritual creation of the Christian.
P Preservation of the Christian in this relationship is divinely enacted in accord with the perseverance of faithful receptivity of God's grace action in a dynamic continuum unto eternity.Click to expand... -
Earth said: ↑So your a universalist!Click to expand...
Now, I can respect the fact that one has decided to put forth his doctrine.
Problem is, faith is a proof, not a response in the sense he descibes it. It's still making action of man the cause, which is fitting to the staus quo of their teachings.
The "P" part? Salvation is seen as carnally secure, "as long as" is the scarlet thread in the statement.
There are more problems, but we're about to eat. :thumbsup: -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporterpreacher4truth said: ↑LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
Now, I can respect the fact that one has decided to put forth his doctrine.
Problem is, faith is a proof, not a response in the sense he descibes it. It's still making action of man the cause, which is fitting to the staus quo of their teachings.
The "P" part? Salvation is seen as carnally secure, "as long as" is the scarlet thread in the statement.
There are more problems, but we're about to eat. :thumbsup:Click to expand...
Then the natural next question is & will always be " Then why are all NOT Saved?" -
Earth said: ↑Im not attacking the guy, just stating the obvious.....this is his commentary " L Limitlessness of God's redemptive and restorative action in Jesus Christ makes His work universally available and applicable to all mankind."
Then the natural next question is & will always be " Then why are all NOT Saved?"Click to expand... -
Earth said: ↑So your a universalist!Click to expand...
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Earth said: ↑Im not attacking the guy, just stating the obvious.....this is his commentary " L Limitlessness of God's redemptive and restorative action in Jesus Christ makes His work universally available and applicable to all mankind."
Then the natural next question is & will always be " Then why are all NOT Saved?"Click to expand...
BTW EWF, I did not take your response as an "attack". A questioned disagreement, but not an attack. -
webdog said: ↑How can you arrive at such an ignorant position based on what he said? Atonement...learn what it actually is and the purpose it actually serves.Click to expand...
Even if they would study some of 'their own' Calvinistic scholars such as AA Hodge, C Hodge, Shedd, Dabney and the like they would better understand the universal sufficiency of the atonement....hey, and maybe even believe it and still wouldn't even have to give up their "Calvinism" to do it, much less become a "universalist." :praying: -
Skandelon said: ↑:thumbs:
Even if they would study some of 'their own' Calvinistic scholars such as AA Hodge, C Hodge, Shedd, Dabney and the like they would better understand the universal sufficiency of the atonement....hey, and maybe even believe it and still wouldn't even have to give up their "Calvinism" to do it, much less become a "universalist." :praying:Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporterwebdog said: ↑How can you arrive at such an ignorant position based on what he said? Atonement...learn what it actually is and the purpose it actually serves.Click to expand...
Maybe you can explain it for us:thumbs::thumbs:
Does your idea of an atonement actually atone..or is it only potential... -
Skandelon said: ↑:thumbs:
Even if they would study some of 'their own' Calvinistic scholars such as AA Hodge, C Hodge, Shedd, Dabney and the like they would better understand the universal sufficiency of the atonement....hey, and maybe even believe it and still wouldn't even have to give up their "Calvinism" to do it, much less become a "universalist." :praying:Click to expand...
Quantam said that the atonement is universally APPLICABLE. It applies to all people. This means that all people have the atonement applied to them therefore all people are saved.
That is universalism. He doesn't really believe that is my guess, but it is what he said.
The Calvinists you list here, like Hodge, express what I believe. That the atonement is sufficient to save every person in the history of the world and a trillion worlds of sinners like it.
He did not pay just so much for so many.
That is not what quantum is saying.
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