Hi Luke2427, I have a theology based on the Word of God. I support every point from scripture. But rather than defend Calvinism you argue that your view has been held by more people for a long time. Twaddle.
I have posted specific positions on Limited Spiritual Ability, Conditional Election for Salvation during our lifetime, General Reconciliation based on Christ dying for all mankind, Resistible and Irresistible Grace, and OASIS eternal security. Feel free to show me from scripture where my views miss the mark. :)
Arminian, Calvinist, Biblicist
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Jun 2, 2012.
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God never takes away a person's freedom to choose. Lucifer, being in a "perfect" state in heaven, had the freedom to reject his station and God; God did not "keep him by his power", did not force him to stay loyal -- indeed He could not because of Who God is.
Humans have the freedom and ability to accept or reject God's offer of salvation, and if they accept the offer, they retain the freedom and ability to reject it later. God does not perform a spiritual lobotomy on them and take away their free will.
This truth is borne out by scripture, as I have pointed out, and is deeply embedded in the nature and character of God. -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Michael Wrenn said: ↑You should say, according to your interpretation of scripture. My interpretation is just as valid, and even more so because I have dealt with an essential part of Who God is.
God never takes away a person's freedom to choose. Lucifer, being in a "perfect" state in heaven, had the freedom to reject his station and God; God did not "keep him by his power", did not force him to stay loyal -- indeed He could not because of Who God is.
Humans have the freedom and ability to accept or reject God's offer of salvation, and if they accept the offer, they retain the freedom and ability to reject it later. God does not perform a spiritual lobotomy on them and take away their free will.
This truth is borne out by scripture, as I have pointed out, and is deeply embedded in the nature and character of God.Click to expand...
Next you claim my view of God hardening the hearts of some unbelieving Jews, restricts their choices such that they would not accept the gospel, is my own and your unstated view is just as valid. Twaddle.
My view is based on 1 Peter 1:3-5, and you have no scripture to support yours, even though you say it is "borne out by scripture." I could say the view that God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars is borne out by scripture. Claims without specific references are without merit.
My view is "embedded in the character of God" because God described His behavior in scripture. He protects those born again through faith. He hardens hearts for His purpose. -
HeirofSalvation said: ↑Van said: ↑They do....Cals and non-Cals alike, you refuse to accept it....they are accountable for presenting it, they are not accountable for whether or not you choose to agree.Click to expand...
But when they attempt to address specifics they appeal to arguments from silence, i.e. God would not choose folks through faith in the truth, but that is what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually says. And if it is based on our faith in the truth, then our election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we have responded to the gospel of Christ.
Now if this truth was found only in one verse, folks might take issue with it, but the same truth is taught in scripture after scripture, 1 Peter 2:9-10, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, James 2:5, and on and on.
Lets see more steak and less sizzle!Click to expand... -
Van said: ↑Why not address the scriptural evidence I provided? I am not saying God always uses His power to restrict our choices to the ones He desires, clearly He does not. But sometimes, i.e. Romans 11, He does.
Next you claim my view of God hardening the hearts of some unbelieving Jews, restricts their choices such that they would not accept the gospel, is my own and your unstated view is just as valid. Twaddle.
My view is based on 1 Peter 1:3-5, and you have no scripture to support yours, even though you say it is "borne out by scripture." I could say the view that God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars is borne out by scripture. Claims without specific references are without merit.
My view is "embedded in the character of God" because God described His behavior in scripture. He protects those born again through faith. He hardens hearts for His purpose.Click to expand...
As I said, I have posted more scriptural evidence in other threads; I'll not rehash that here.
Continue now with your insults; I expect it.
There are many things I'm uncertain about, but this is not one of them. I know beyond doubt that my view is correct. -
Michael Wrenn said: ↑You should say, according to your interpretation of scripture. My interpretation is just as valid, and even more so because I have dealt with an essential part of Who God is.
God never takes away a person's freedom to choose. Lucifer, being in a "perfect" state in heaven, had the freedom to reject his station and God; God did not "keep him by his power", did not force him to stay loyal -- indeed He could not because of Who God is.
Humans have the freedom and ability to accept or reject God's offer of salvation, and if they accept the offer, they retain the freedom and ability to reject it later. God does not perform a spiritual lobotomy on them and take away their free will.
This truth is borne out by scripture, as I have pointed out, and is deeply embedded in the nature and character of God.Click to expand...
The Bible does not teach this mythical freedom. Free Will Baptists and the like ASSUME that because God says in a few places to "choose" something that that means that God wants all people completely free at all times.
The saints in heaven are not "free" to turn from God. Sinners on earth are not "free" to turn to God at any time in their lives.
Christians are not "free" to turn away from God into apostasy either.
The Bible emphasizes the freedom of the Creator- not the freedom of the creature. -
Luke2427 said: ↑That's not true. God is no where near as obsessed with creature-freedom as many creatures are.
The Bible does not teach this mythical freedom. Free Will Baptists and the like ASSUME that because God says in a few places to "choose" something that that means that God wants all people completely free at all times.
The saints in heaven are not "free" to turn from God. Sinners on earth are not "free" to turn to God at any time in their lives.
Christians are not "free" to turn away from God into apostasy either.
The Bible emphasizes the freedom of the Creator- not the freedom of the creature.Click to expand... -
Michael Wrenn said: ↑It is true. The Bible teaches it. It was true from the beginning with Adam and Eve; it was true in heaven before Adam and Eve, and it is still true. Nowhere does scripture say that God has taken away this freedom that He bestowed on His sentient beings. He couldn't take it away because that would be contradicting Who He is -- God cannot cease to be God.Click to expand...
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On the one side we have those who claim God does not at times override our opportunity to choose, when He hardens hearts, which is simply denial of scripture. But then this is countered on the other side with the claim all our decisions are overridden by our "hardened by the fall heart." Neither view is biblical. Sometimes God overrides our ability to choose when He hardens the hearts of those who could otherwise seek God and trust in Christ. How so obvious a truth, presenting in passage after passage could be denied by virtually every single poster on this thread boggles the mind.
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Van said: ↑On the one side we have those who claim God does not at times override our opportunity to choose, when He hardens hearts, which is simply denial of scripture. But then this is countered on the other side with the claim all our decisions are overridden by our "hardened by the fall heart." Neither view is biblical. Sometimes God overrides our ability to choose when He hardens the hearts of those who could otherwise seek God and trust in Christ. How so obvious a truth, presenting in passage after passage could be denied by virtually every single poster on this thread boggles the mind.Click to expand...
You continue to believe as you do, I'll do the same, and I'll meet you at the end of the journey. Godspeed! -
Greektim said: ↑Capacity of volition isn't really the issue for Calvinism. It is the fact that said capacity is marred by sin and bends all volitional issues towards sin, self, or the satan.Click to expand...
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Another way people can harden their own hearts and lose the ability to grow is by the practice of sin, i.e. not laying aside fleshy behavior. We have limited ability to discern spiritual things, i.e. the milk of the gospel, but even that can be taken away, according to scripture. Calvinism has everything taken away at birth, the opposite of the truth presented in scripture. Consider the carnal Christians stuck in the starting gate. :)
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Both Arminianism and Calvinism deviate from scripture as indicated below:
Van said:Arminian
Man's depravity is only partial. Man is not left in totally helpless state. His will is not affected by sin. It is still free to choose good over evil, and could repent and believe. Faith is the sinner's contribution to his salvation. His eternal destiny depends on how he uses his free will.
Calvinist
Man is a free moral agent, and his will is in bondage to his nature. He cannot change his nature. He cannot make choices contrary to his nature. He is dead in his trespasses and sins and is drawn to the god of the dead.
Biblical Position
Man's natural fallen spiritual ability is limited. Men of flesh, i.e. not regenerated and thus spiritually separated from God, can understand the milk of the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3) but not spiritual meat, which requires being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Arminian
Election is based upon God's foreknowledge, which means He looked down the corridors of time and saw who would believe the gospel, and so chose those who were willing to choose Him.
Calvinist
God saw that no one would believe on his own, so He chose some before the foundation of the world, according to His own pleasure and purpose, and gives them the faith to believe.
Biblical Position
Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Both Calvinists and Arminians read "chose us individually in Him" into the text. However, in light of other scriptures i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which say God chose us through faith in the truth, Ephesians 1:4 must be understood to say God chose us in Him corporately before the foundation of the world. In other words, God chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, and therefore in effect chose everyone subsequently redeemed by the Redeemer.
Arminian
Christ's death was "sufficient" for all but "efficient" only for the ones who would believe. It had unlimited purpose but a limited power (limited by man's free will). It did not in fact secure the salvation for anyone, it only made salvation possible.
Calvinist
The intention of Christ's redeeming work was to save the elect and in fact secured salvation for them. God has a limited purpose (save the elect) and an unlimited power. Christ secured the salvation of those for whom He died.
Biblical Position
Christ died for all mankind because God desires all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan. But no one receives the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice unless God credits their faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) and spiritually places them in Christ (1 Cor. 1:30). So Christ both provides reconciliation to all mankind and provides salvation for all those spiritually placed in Christ by God.
Arminian
God wants to save everybody, but inasmuch as man is free, he can resist God's will. The Holy Spirit can draw only those that allow Him to draw them. They first have to be willing to believe.
Calvinist
The external call given to the all who hear the gospel can be and often is rejected. The internal call made by the Spirit to the elect cannot be ultimately resisted. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to believe, repent, and come willingly to Christ.
Biblical Position
God does desire all men to be saved but according to His purpose and plan which is to choose those whose faith He credits as righteousness. God's plan is not to compel faith via irresistible grace, but to be glorified by those who autonomously repent and trust in God. God grants repentance by providing the opportunity through His revelatory grace, i.e. the gospel of Christ, and by not prohibiting repentance by hardening, except in cases where the hardening is in according with His purpose, i.e. the unbelieving Jews of Romans 11.
Arminian
Believers who are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith. As man's will is the instrument of his salvation, it can also be the instrument of his falling from grace. The Christian must persevere to the end or be lost. (Some who believe in the other points of Arminianism reject the idea of falling from grace and embrace eternal security.)
Calvinist
While the saint is preserved by God, true faith will persevere, even though it may stumble and fail. They will arise and go on in the faith. They are eternally saved.
Biblical Position
Once a person is spiritually placed in Christ, they are sealed in Him forever, so once a person is actually saved by God putting them spiritually in Christ, they are saved forever. God also protects their faith and devotion to Christ, 1 Peter 1:3-5, keeping them as in a locked cell, but He does not protect a person's ministry so we might build with perishable stuff and enter heaven as one escaping from a fire.Click to expand...
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