A signature line of a regular poster reads:
Arminianism is simply the religious expression of Humanism. If the child of God cannot "will" or "do" anything pleasing to God apart from God working it in him (Philip. 2:13) how in the world does the Arminian think the lost man can?????
This question is a gross misrepresentation of Arminian theology. I don't call myself Arminian for reasons explained elsewhere but I know enough about the teaching to know this is a blatant misnomer.
Arminians affirm along with Calvinists that neither the lost man nor the child of God is able to will or do anything pleasing apart from God's working. Arminians simply deny that this divine 'working' is effectual in nature, and thus differ with Calvinists regarding man's ability to 'trade the truth in for lies' and resist the gracious provisional work of God.
Arminianism = Humanism?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Jan 17, 2014.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Arminianism repudiates the will of God as the determinate power in the salvation of men. Indeed, regardless of "God's working" in the Arminian scheme the human will is soverign over God's will when it comes to the power of determining salvation. Regardless of the working of God, in the Arminian scheme, the human will is sovereign in determinism of salvation.
However, if the regenerate man requires God to work in him "both TO WILL and TO DO of God's good pleasure" then how can it be possible that the unregenerate man can do what the saved man cannot do??? Note this has to do with the power to "WILL" as well as the power to "DO" what pleases God.
Are the unregenerate in possession of greater will power and greater ability than the saved?????
Arminianism is the religious form of humanism which teaches that Man is ultimately the captain of his own destiny. -
Likewise, in regard to who determines man's salvation, even in the non-Calvinistic framework the choice is God's to save those who repent and believe as He was not obligated in any way to do so. Faith and repentance don't merit salvation. It is of pure grace that God CHOOSES to save those who choose to repent and believe, so in that regard salvation is all of Grace and completely determined by God.
Granted, once that choice has been determined and God has made His promise to save whosoever will believe and repent, it is 'up to man' to respond, which is why we believe man is 'response-able.'
But is it misrepresentative in my opinion to state things in the manner you did. -
I am going to put you two in a padded room with an unlimited supply of marshmallows to throw at each other....
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It was never more clearly seen when skan announced knowing the Lord is a personal achievement. That right there is humanism, a false gospel, and taking of God's glory and giving it to man. How a person can wrest Jeremiah 9:24 in that way and conclude those things is reprehensible.
Carry on. -
If it is the latter - then as an Arminian I would say that neither the lost nor the saved can do much of anything - if there is no God or if they are placed in the mythical Calvinist "God-vacuum" for evaluation.
in Christ,
Bob -
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The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." Rom. 10:21
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Matt. 23:37 -
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2Peter 3 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
1 John 2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2Cor 5
"We beg you on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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It would be like saying that the will of the dog stands supreme if the owner of the dog let's the dog run loose in the field and merely calls the dog to supper from time to time. As if the owner had no part in it - only the dog determines what the universe will be like.
God sovereignly chooses free will and suddenly in Calvinism "God ceases to be God should He sovereignly make a choice for free will that does not fit with Calvinism".
In Calvinism there are some sovereign choices that "God is just not allowed to make - no matter what the Bible says about whosoever will".
Not sure how it ends up that way.
in Christ,
Bob -
Your argument presumes it is not God choice to allow man freedom as if He is at the whim of man. That is silly. -
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We are speaking of two things here. One is the actual choosing and the other is the means of that choice. If God allows (or enables, if you prefer) man to choose, then does not the choice belong to man rather than God?
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The part that needs to actually be discussed is the definition of "humanism." Turn the statement around: does Humanism = Arminianism? If the answer is no, then Arminianism is NOT the religious expression of humanism. If the answer is yes, then the discussion *must* determine how the arminian adheres to humanistic beliefs of the inherent goodness of humans; and how the arminian seeks solely rational means of solving problems without divine guidance or support.
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Look at it this way. It was the choice of the Prodigal to return home and beg for forgiveness, but upon his return wasn't it still ultimately the choice of the father to either punish the son and send him packing (which is what he deserved), or to shower him with unmerited grace by restoring him as a son?
See what I mean? Even though man MUST come home, it is still ultimately the choice of the FATHER to ACCEPT and GRACE US, because we don't deserve it. Asking for forgiveness doesn't merit forgiveness, we still deserve hell even after we ask for God to forgive us. His salvation is all of grace. -
My understanding of your view (correct me where I stray) is that God draws men to himself, and men are saved because of God’s grace. Men choose out of their own free-will, but their salvation is still a matter of divine grace. Where we disagree is that I believe God turns men to himself, and once facing God those drawn freely chose Him. To you this would not seem to be a “free” choice (and perhaps it is not depending on how one defines “free-will”).
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