Baptism and obedience

thessalonian · May 16, 2003

Brian,

Do you say trinitarian vs. non-trinitarian doesn't matter? Just give me Jesus is the cry. Truth matter Brian. The oneness crowd are the only ones who reject the trinitarian form of baptism. God will be Carol's judge and I make no prediction either way. He will judge her heart but your belittling of Christ's sacrement of regeneration due to your own personal loose theology is dangerous. Truth becomes irrelevant. What Jesus taught becomes inconsequention as long as we have a name in our minds. The trinity become irrelevant when we detach baptism from the Cross and grace and new life by the washing of our souls by the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

Briguy · May 16, 2003

Hi thess. Believing in the trinity matters to me because I know it is proper doctrine. I do not believe when judged by God, He will hold us out of Heaven based on doctrinal differences. Carol has placed her trust by faith in Jesus to forgive her of her sins. If that is true of her, and I believe it is, she is clean in God's sight. Even if she maintains a doctrinal postion as "oneness" until she dies she will be no less clean in God's sight.

Your being wrong about Baptism will not keep you out of heaven either (sorry, just had to attempt to be funny, please don't be offended)

Now, the quotes you pointed out weigh heavy toward immersion and adult only baptism. It seems kind of inconsistant to insist on following the tradtion of the early fathers but then not really follow the tradition of the early fathers.(for me I am skeptical of the authenticity of early writings).

If you want give me one verse at a time you feels shows baptism as a must and I will show you arguments that dispute that claim. This would be a good way to continue.

In Christ,
Brian

thessalonian · May 16, 2003

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi thess. Believing in the trinity matters to me because I know it is proper doctrine. I do not believe when judged by God, He will hold us out of Heaven based on doctrinal differences. Carol has placed her trust by faith in Jesus to forgive her of her sins. If that is true of her, and I believe it is, she is clean in God's sight. Even if she maintains a doctrinal postion as "oneness" until she dies she will be no less clean in God's sight.

I do wish to say one thing:

"I do not believe when judged by God, He will hold us out of Heaven based on doctrinal differences. "

God has given us 1500 pages of doctrine. To write it off as unimportant to our salvation (which is what your sentence above does) is ludicris. However I will state Catholic understanding in this way. Obedience is neccessary, but to obey you have to have heard in a manner that could be understood and willfully reject. We will be judged on obedience to truth.

Your being wrong about Baptism will not keep you out of heaven either (sorry, just had to attempt to be funny, please don't be offended)

Now, the quotes you pointed out weigh heavy toward immersion and adult only baptism. It seems kind of inconsistant to insist on following the tradtion of the early fathers but then not really follow the tradition of the early fathers.(for me I am skeptical of the authenticity of early writings).

If you want give me one verse at a time you feels shows baptism as a must and I will show you arguments that dispute that claim. This would be a good way to continue.

In Christ,
Brian
Click to expand...

I'm taking a break Brian. I will pick this up when I come back. I am thinking about writing a whole piece on baptism containing all the verses, types, etc.

I do have to say one thing in this post:
"I do not believe when judged by God, He will hold us out of Heaven based on doctrinal differences. "

I think this is seriously flawed. God did not give us 1500 pages of his revelation and truth for it to be insignificant and of no value in our salvation (which is what you are saying here). Having said that I will explain the Catholic position this way. John 6 has three groups involved. 2 who were present and one group not present. Of course there were those who accepted his words at face value. Those who turned away in disobedience are accountable for they were there to hear the words from Jesus himself. They were accountable for doctrine.
Finally there were those not present who could not hear and believe. What of them? Can't make any conclusions. I can't justifiably punish my kid for not doing the dishes if he was outside when I hollered out Joey, do the dishes. i.e I cannot judge Carol's accountability. But this does not make doctrine unimportant with regard to salvation.

Blessings and once again thanks for the cordial conversation and compliments.

Peace to you

[ May 16, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

MEE · May 17, 2003

Originally posted by thessalonian:

Now for the answer you have been waiting for. It is my understanding that a baptism done in the name of Christ or name of Jesus by a ONENESS group would not be accepted in the Catholic Church.

**So what you are saying is that my water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, as well as the baptisms of all the apostles in the Bible, would not be accepted by the Catholic Church?

I'm still learning. Stay with me!

Tell me, do you baptize in the name of Jesus or Jesus Christ? Does your Oneness Church hold our baptisms to be valid?

**All should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or the Lord Jesus. This is scriptural. It has nothing to do with what I or my church believes. One should just stay with the Bible. Nothing changed!

If water baptism, in the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was never practiced or found in the Bible, why would anyone be expected to accept such actions?

MEE
Click to expand...

Yelsew · May 17, 2003

I think this is seriously flawed. God did not give us 1500 pages of his revelation and truth for it to be insignificant and of no value in our salvation (which is what you are saying here).
Click to expand...

I am convinced that the 1500 pages of revelation and truth can be condensed down to this:

Works do not, and indeed, cannot save!
Jesus' Atonement on the cross pays for the sins of the world.

With works dealt with, and Sins paid for, there is but one Factor to be considered, and that is FAITH.

Faith saves.

Kathryn · May 17, 2003

With works dealt with, and Sins paid for, there is but one Factor to be considered, and that is FAITH.
Faith saves.
Click to expand...

Holy Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, but not by faith alone. St. Paul says:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." Galatians 5:6

God Bless

DHK · May 17, 2003

Originally posted by Kathryn:

Holy Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, but not by faith alone. St. Paul says:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
Click to expand...

Love is not joined with faith in justification. That is not what is being taught here. Three times in the Bible does it say that the just shall live by faith. More than once does it refer to Abraham being justified by faith. Many times over does the Bible say that we are saved by faith. Don't stop at Gal.5:6, taking the verse out of context, but read down to Gal.5:14.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The fulfillment of the law is love. The fulfillment of the law was at the cross in Christ.
So all the law is fulfilled in Christ, and only by faith in Christ is one able to truly fulfill the law of Christ (which is love).
Salvation is by faith, and faith alone.
DHK
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Singer · May 17, 2003

The fulfillment of the law is love. The fulfillment of the law was at the cross in Christ.
So all the law is fulfilled in Christ, and only by faith in Christ is one able to truly fulfill the law of Christ (which is love). Salvation is by faith, and faith alone

Thanks for that lesson, DHK; that kinda explains it to my wondering mind just how love and fulfillment and the law all fit in. I also see Gal 5:6 as not covering the topic of salvation. Faith through love....Yes, but not Faith + Love = Salvation.

thessalonian · May 17, 2003

Originally posted by MEE:

Originally posted by thessalonian:

Now for the answer you have been waiting for. It is my understanding that a baptism done in the name of Christ or name of Jesus by a ONENESS group would not be accepted in the Catholic Church.

**So what you are saying is that my water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, as well as the baptisms of all the apostles in the Bible, would not be accepted by the Catholic Church?

I'm still learning. Stay with me!

Tell me, do you baptize in the name of Jesus or Jesus Christ? Does your Oneness Church hold our baptisms to be valid?

**All should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or the Lord Jesus. This is scriptural. It has nothing to do with what I or my church believes. One should just stay with the Bible. Nothing changed!

If water baptism, in the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was never practiced or found in the Bible, why would anyone be expected to accept such actions?

MEE
Click to expand...

The name of Jesus means in the authority of. It is not the form. Have you never heard in corney TV programs the phrase "stop in the name of the Law". Nowhere does it say that as someone went down in to the water, the word's "I baptize you in the name of Jesus" were said. We have no quote anywhere in scripture of the actual words that were said during a baptism contrary to what you are saying. Study carefully. They don't exist. The trinitarian form given in Matt 28 is the form. Matt 28 is biblical, i.e. in the Bible last I checked. It is the instructions on how to do it. This is how tradition and legitimate authority has held it for 2000 years. You of course read the name of the father....and of the Holy Spirt as equal to the name of Jesus by your Oneness theology. It is what you have been brought up in. It is the tradition that you hold to and so you reject the Tradition that has stood the test of time for 2000 years. Oneness has come and God and has been repudiated as a heresy by legitimate Christianity throughout the ages. Sorry to be blunt but it is true.
You use external sources to make your arguement but then ignore mind. Did the early Christians immediately start doing it wrong. The Didache and Ireaneaus are very early writings. It is quite clear that they used the trinitarian formula of Mt. 28. But we don't just need their word for when it says in 2 Thes 2:15 to hold fast to the written and oral traditions and when Paul praises the corinthians for holding to tradition in 1 Cor 10:2 we know that the Holy spirit has helped them to do so and that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" though they will try. Sabellianism is not a persevering doctrine.

I am supposed to be taking a break but since I have not given you much time for interaction on this I thought I would give you one more post.

By the way briguy, not that it matters much to me or hurts my feelings but I think you should note here that it is not just the Catholics who are the big meanies.
God bless.
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MEE · May 17, 2003

thess: thanks for your reply! You answered just the way I thought that you would. I would really like to have heard what the "Church of Christ" folks have to say, but it probably would be the same. What is it that they say, "Birds of a feather flock together."

Anyway, we could go on and on over this, but you believe it your way and I'll just stick with the Bible.

MEE

Yelsew · May 17, 2003

I see that there is some confusion over my statement.

Works do not, and indeed, cannot save!
Jesus' Atonement on the cross pays for the sins of the world.

With works dealt with, and Sins paid for, there is but one Factor to be considered, and that is FAITH.
Click to expand...

Rest assured, that I do not mean that FAITH is the only factor in Christian life. However FAITH in Jesus the Christ is the driving force for any Christian.

It is by one's Faith that the Fruits of the Spririt are nurtured in the individual.

It is by FAITH that one can set self aside and follow Jesus.

It is by FAITH that one can possess unqualified love of fellow man.

We Chrisians walk by FAITH and not by sight!

FAITH is the glue that holds all of the tenets of Christianity together for us.

I am addressing the FAITH that the saints had while living this Natural life. The saints in heaven have no further need of FAITH, for they are now with the object of their faith.

It is FAITH, and no other, whereby we are saved.

Kathryn · May 17, 2003

Singer says:

Faith through love....Yes, but not Faith + Love = Salvation.
Click to expand...

There is no math formula for salvation of A + B = C. Scripture teaches it is faith working through love that is important.

St. Paul:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." Galatians 5:6

James:
"You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected ;" James 2:22

Salvation is not by faith alone.

God Bless

Kathryn · May 17, 2003

Read James chapter 2 in context of course. James has quite a bit to say about how faith and works need to work together:

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? James 2:14

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself . James 2:17

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works ." James 2:18

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless ? James 2:20

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected ; James 2:22

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone . James 2:24

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead . James 2:26

[ May 17, 2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

Singer · May 17, 2003

A + B = C.

I Disagree !!!!

No, but actually with the compulsion that most (MOST) of us on this board have, it would be understandable if we could not even agree on that simple quotient.

For you see...........C= A + B and not the way you wrote it Kathryn.

The answer always comes before the question in the case of dealing with the ABCs.
This makes sense as we know that Jesus (the answer for our salvation) WAS before the creation of the world. Scripturally correct and physically appropriate. We have to
consider matters of faith in line with this great mystery of math. For anyone not to see this simple feature leaves one open to doubt and deception. The letter C even comes first in the Greek Alphabet and follows the truth "Ohhhh Say Can You See". There is no Aye or Bee in the song "I See the Light". (If it IS a song) which also proves this aspect of wisdom. In the bible verses dealing with Christ's handling of the Holy Spirit to us, he never used the words Aye or Bee, but the word SEE is quite common. Even forms of the word such as Saw and Seen are common. I'm not.

I really don't think this makes sense nor do I know what I'm typing, and I am as convinced of that as I am my own first name. You needent agree with me and that is our problem, for I know from whence I come.

This work is senseless and futile, but my faith is strong.

Music makes the world go 'Round....

Singer

Kathryn · May 17, 2003

Singer:

Holy Scripture teaches us the relationship between faith and works. It is not a matter of faith + works = salvation. Faith justifies, but St. Paul points out it is faith working through love, not faith alone. To claim faith alone one has to disregard much of Holy Scripture.

Martin Luther had the same dilemma and actually added the word “alone” to the Bible to help teach his doctrine of “faith alone”. The words “faith alone” are only in Scripture where James says it is “not by faith alone”.

Jesus Christ Himself taught:
" 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:36-40

Salvation is by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works. Faith working through love.

"You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected" ; James 2:22

God Bless

Kathryn · May 17, 2003

So, Singer:

Are you putting on your breastplate of faith and love? If you do, you can wear as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

"But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love , and as a helmet, the hope of salvation . For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him." 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

God Bless

thessalonian · May 17, 2003

Originally posted by MEE:
thess: thanks for your reply! You answered just the way I thought that you would. I would really like to have heard what the "Church of Christ" folks have to say, but it probably would be the same. What is it that they say, "Birds of a feather flock together."

Anyway, we could go on and on over this, but you believe it your way and I'll just stick with the Bible.

MEE
Click to expand...

Carol, I have to say I find that birds of a feather comment on the insulting side. Surely you weren't acting all willing to understand just to insult in the end.

Yes, I know, everyone wants to stick with the Bible and yet the contradict eachother. Someday Protestantism has to come to grips with this. God does not contradict. How do you know when you are wrong and do not have a teaching that is conformable to the Bible Carol. My use of Church fathers to back my position is not to say that the Bible does not say what I say. The Church fathers are evidence that others today are misstating what is intended in the Bible. Of course you will only see that when you think they support your view. Oneness types are not above usign them selectively and out of context to support there Sabellian views.

Blessings.

Singer · May 18, 2003

Martin Luther had the same dilemma and actually added the word “alone” to the Bible to help teach his doctrine of “faith alone”.

Kathryn, I always thought the Catholic bible's wording is the same as the KJV. What verses
concerning "faith" do they differ, and what verse are you pertaining to that was changed...?

James Ch 2 seems to pertain to justification and liberty. Verse 24 says "by works a man is
justified." But yet neither will save us nor will the combination of the two. It is still Grace that
saves; as you quote:

Salvation is by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not
because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive
the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to
good works. Faith working through love

Unless you have a hidden agenda in the above statement, it would qualify in Protestant circles
as correct. . Matthew Ch 16 attested to the fact that it is Christ's saving work that is important
as Jesus confronted many with the question "Whom say ye that I am". It is the question of
all time. We might differ according to your wording "we are accepted by God and
receive the Holy Spirit".

How are we accepted by God and how do we receive the Holy Spirit...? It seems like many
statements are pure on the surface but hold a hidden meaning when crossing
denominational lines.

I assume we'd agree that God does not automatically "accept us" and equip us with the Holy Spirit without some action on our part. What would that action consist of ?

Kathryn · May 18, 2003

Singer:

Yes, salvation is by grace alone, not faith alone. St. Paul calls faith and love a breastplate to wear along with a helmet the hope of salvation. St. Paul explains how faith, love, and hope of salvation are related and are all gifts from God. Of course he also says the greatest of these 3 gifts is love and this one alone will endure forever.

Have you noticed the breastplate we are to wear with the helmet of hope of salvation is faith and love? Faith working through love, in order to have this relationship, have to be together….one breastplate.

"But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation . For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him." 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

Obedience to God is possible because of the gifts or grace of God of faith, hope, and love. God calls us and give us the grace to respond.

God Bless

P.S.

The Protestants did not condone Luther’s change of the Bible, and it was taken out.

[ May 18, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

Singer · May 18, 2003

Kathryn:

You don't seem unified with your Catholic brethern in the insistance
of joining the "church started by Jesus." Nor have you mentioned baptism
as the mechanism of receiving the Holy Spirit. Nor have you offered that
non-Catholics are ''incomplete'' Christians as so many do. Grace is God's
part and faith and love are all that we can offer, so in that sense, our
obligation is to have faith and love. That might be where many Catholics
tend to blame Protestants for skipping out on the Grace part. Works again
are a different story.....not adding to our chance at salvation. "Joining
a "right church" seems like a work to me. AND if salvation is by Grace
through faith, that does NOT exclude anyone and therefore there is no
"right church".

Do you agree that salvation can be secured by following the invitation
on the Baptist Board frontpage as such : ?

Think carefully on this soul-searching question: If you should die right now,
do you know for sure that you would go to Heaven? If your answer is
anything other than, "Yes I'm absolutely certain that my sins are forgiven
and that Heaven will be my home," then click here now !

Thanks

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