Baptism in the Spirit

[Moriah]

What is it to be "stiffnecked" and how does circumcision of the heart rectify that problem? Think! Stiffnecked is the resistance described by Paul in Romans 8:7. Circumcison of the heart is God providing a NEW NATURE that is compliant and obedient to His commandments - law written in the heart.

NOT everyone is stiff necked in the Old Testament. I can show you that with scripture.
As I have already told you in the last post, circumcision of the heart is the New Covenant.
The scriptures in the Old Testament that you keep quoting are about what God is going to do when He makes a New Covenant.

De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Without heart circumcision there is no eternal life as it is the same as quickening - regeneration - spiritual life - union with God.

That is your unbiblical reasoning that you come up with to support your false beliefs that have their roots in Calvinism.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
The uncircumcised heart is a rebellious NATURE that produces "evil...doings" just as Romans 8:7 teaches.
The universal rule of Romans 8:8-9 is from Genesis to Revelation.

I love repeating the truth. It may help you or someone to hear it again.
You are quoting scripture from the Old Testament about what God is GOING TO DO when He makes a NEW COVENANT. The New Testament is the New Covenant. The New Covenant happened with Jesus.

The Holy Spirit dwelt within Old Testament saints and does all saints in all ages or else they cannot belong to God (Rom. 8:9).

God was with the Old Testament people when He spoke to them through the Holy Spirit with the mouths of His prophets.

 

[The Biblicist]

the point is that God did NOT expect, nor provide for the OT believers to being able to overcome their flesh, to fully obey the law, as thelaw was given to regulate behavior, to regulate their disociety as way God wanted, as isreal was His Covenant people/nation...

So they were same back then as we are now before saved bygod, sinners, weak in the flesh , so god remitted/passed over their sins, while in the better/superior new Covenant he provided for full atonement and the power now to live for God, as receiving new natures AND the Holy Spirit!

So you are repudiating Romans 3:19-20 and 7:1-12 to have any application to Old Testament people under the law. Paul teaches that the law and those "under the law" could never be justified by the law or obey the law and that the law never restrained the flesh but instead excited it to sin. The law could never make anyone a child of God. The law could never provide anyone with a spirit of obedience. The law does not change a spiritual dead nature. Your problem remains the same.

Responding to Moriah is like talking to a stone, except a stone would be a better object to speak to.

 

[The Biblicist]

Consider this!

1. Do you believe the fallen nature of man is any different after the cross and Pentecost than before the cross and Pentecost?

2. Does not Paul prove that the REGENERATE man is incapable of overcoming indwelling sin in Romans 7:14-25 with special emphasis on verse 18 apart from dependence upon the indwelling Spirit of God?

3. Does not Paul prove that the UNREGENERATE man is incapable of submission to God in Romans 8:7?

You have invented another kind of human being prior to the cross that can overcome indwelling sin and walk by faith (Heb. 11) without being either regenerated or indwelt by the Spirit of God and that can be submissive to the law of God as an UNREGENERATED man. Hence, a completely different kind of human being with a completely different kind of fallen nature.

Romans 8:8-9 is placed in a UNIVERSAL context where only TWO different classes of mankind exist in this world. Those who are "in the flesh" and those who are "in the Spirit" and those without the indwelling Spirit of God are explicitly said to be "NONE OF HIS." Are those listed in Hebrews His?

Consider this Old Testament assertion by God:

Deut. 29: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

What would God have to do to reverse this condition that matches the description given by Paul in Romans 8:7?

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Isn't the ONLY response to the problem God describes in Deuteronomy 29:4 is provided in Ezekiel 36:26-27?

Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Does not Paul define this as the new birth under the new covenant in 2 Cor. 3:3-6???

Now consider their stated condition in Deuteronomy 29:4 and ask yourself is that simply a special condition of some men before the cross or all men by nature? If so, then what happened to men like Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, David, etc., etc. that reversed that state or condition?? Ask youself that question in regard to the Pre-cross rebuke of Nicodemus by Christ in John 3:9-10?

The evidence is overwhelming and abundant when you have eyes to see the truth.

Yeshua, don't simply give me your unsubstantiated personal opinions but deal with the actual scriptuers I gave above and present an exegetical response why my interpretation of each text is incorrect. I don't think you can do this honestly and objectively and still hold to your opinions.

 

[The Biblicist]

NOT everyone is stiff necked in the Old Testament. .

There can be no basis of reasoning with a mind like yours when it openly rejects Paul's clear and explicit statements that in regard to "ALL THE WORLD" that there is within that sphere of consideration "NO FLESH" (Rom. 3:19) whether Jew or Gentile that is not under sin and thus under the condemnation of the Law (Rom. 3:9) and therefore there is "NO DIFFERENCE" that all have sinned (Rom. 3:23) and therefore there is "NONE, NO, NOT ONE" that is righteous, does good or seeks after God (Rom. 3:10-12) without first being saved by God.

The only ones who do are those God seeks first and saves as God looked down upon the "children OF MEN" (not of Israel) and saw NONE, NOT ONE that sought after him or did righteousness or did good (Psa. 14:2-3).

Christ said there is "NONE that doeth good but ONE" and it was not you Moriah! Both Paul and Christ are describing the UNIVERSAL nature of man as he comes into this world by physical birth NOT NEW BIRTH. The only ones in the world that are not classifed as ungodly are those who experience NEW BIRTH.

You pit the scriptures that refer to those MADE GOOD by God against the scriptures that teach UNIVERSAL and COMPLETE DEPRAVITY BY NATURE AND BIRTH before God.

You repudiate Christ and Paul and there absolute statements "THERE IS NONE, NO, NOT ONE" and say oh yes there were "SOME" and "NOT ALL" were born with such a fallen depraved nature.

You write your own Bible, invent your own gospel, and preach your own plan of salvation which comes directly from hell.

 

[Moriah]

Responding to Moriah is like talking to a stone, except a stone would be a better object to speak to.

I am like a stone, a living stone.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am like a stone, a living stone.

I see no evidence of that.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your view inserts the church into salvation and thus drastically changes the doctrine of salvation after Pentecost than before Pentecost.

My view has salvation "in Christ" (meaning his redemptive Person and work) alone before and after the cross, before and after Pentecost.

It is a huge difference as you ADD the church to the Biblical doctrine of salvation.

No, jesus death ALONE provides the basis for ANY of us to be saved, as that provodes full propiation for sins commited by sinners such as you and I once were before saved by God!

My point on the Church is that until the Messiah actually came and did the atoning act on his Cross, we would NOT be new creatures in Christ, nor have the sealing/indwelling of th HS as we do now..

God forbade/ remitted the sins of the OT beliver in coming messiah, but there were still in same natures, and not as we are now under the new Covenant!

So the Lord did by pass their sinfullness, not holding those against them BECAUSE of the Messiah to come...

We agree that the Cross of Christ provided basis of one getting justified/saved by god, and we access that thru faith in Christ...

Just disagree that there is no functional differences between Old/New Covenants, as I hold that their sins were not held against them/remitted by god, but they were not spirit filled, nor with new natures! that would be done under the new Covenant!

You seem to hold that the OT believers were filled by holy spirit and new natured JUST as we now are!

 

[DHK]

You need to take heed.

Say again???

You do not understand how the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

The kingdom of heaven was offered to the Jews in Jesus time. They rejected it. It will not come again until Jesus comes again and sets up his rule in the Millennial Kingdom.
Note this well. The phrase "the kingdom is used in the NT 33 times. 32 of those times it is used in the Gospel of Matthew. The only other occurrence is in Revelation 12 where it speaks of the MK. You do not understand the kingdom of heaven. Again you try to teach doctrine from a parable and have gone astray.

I work out my salvation.

That is your problem. My salvation is kept by Christ. It is in his hand. It is eternally secured. I am one of his sheep. I shall never perish. He has given me eternal life. All my sins: past, present and future are under the blood. There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. I don't live in the fear of losing my salvation as you do.

I do not keep the same desires for sin, as you say we do, and that it is normal.

If you were honest with yourself you would admit that you sin every day. You sin through the very things that you post.
For example, you accuse Biblicist and others of blasphemy, falsity, and other harsh things. Would it not be better to say: "I have a different view." Or, "You may be right, but this is what I believe." You sin, every time you accuse them of something akin of blasphemy and false teaching when there is a possibility that they might be right and you might be wrong. Day after day you do this. It is sin. It is pride. It is arrogance. And then to say you don't struggle with sin is to commit the sin mentioned in 1John 1:8,10 which is far worse--denying Christ.

You even say it is a sin to say what I say, and I only say what the Bible says. You say it means I am not saved.

What does the Bible mean when it says a person denies Christ and the truth is not in him? I am only the messenger of the Word of God; I did not write it. There are other ways to disagree with a person rather than accuse them of blasphemy. That is what the Jews did to Jesus, and Jesus said they would never be forgiven. I don't believe that is the case here, but it is a good warning.

I say you are doing the work of the devil, for I have not heard such accusing from anyone as from you and Biblicist.

You have just done the same thing again. You have just accused me of doing the work of the devil. Now if you are wrong it is you doing the work of the devil for you have made an accusation without any room for any possibility that you might be wrong. That kind of accusation is sin.

The Bible says Satan is the accuser of the brethren. You are working real hard at accusing me of not being saved.

But as you just demonstrated you just accused the brethren. You just accused me of doing the work of the devil.
The native Indian used to say: "You speak with forked tongue."

 

[Moriah]

There can be no basis of reasoning with a mind like yours when it openly rejects Paul's clear and explicit statements that in regard to "ALL THE WORLD" that there is within that sphere of consideration "NO FLESH" (Rom. 3:19) whether Jew or Gentile that is not under sin and thus under the condemnation of the Law (Rom. 3:9) and therefore there is "NO DIFFERENCE" that all have sinned (Rom. 3:23) and therefore there is "NONE, NO, NOT ONE" that is righteous, does good or seeks after God (Rom. 3:10-12) without first being saved by God.

The only ones who do are those God seeks first and saves as God looked down upon the "children OF MEN" (not of Israel) and saw NONE, NOT ONE that sought after him or did righteousness or did good (Psa. 14:2-3).

Christ said there is "NONE that doeth good but ONE" and it was not you Moriah! Both Paul and Christ are describing the UNIVERSAL nature of man as he comes into this world by physical birth NOT NEW BIRTH. The only ones in the world that are not classifed as ungodly are those who experience NEW BIRTH.

You pit the scriptures that refer to those MADE GOOD by God against the scriptures that teach UNIVERSAL and COMPLETE DEPRAVITY BY NATURE AND BIRTH before God.

You repudiate Christ and Paul and there absolute statements "THERE IS NONE, NO, NOT ONE" and say oh yes there were "SOME" and "NOT ALL" were born with such a fallen depraved nature.

You write your own Bible, invent your own gospel, and preach your own plan of salvation which comes directly from hell.

I have shown you that you were using Old Testament scriptures about what was going to happen, not about what was happening. I have explained to you Old Testament/Old Covenant and New Testament/New Covenant.

I will also explain to you about total depravity being false.

Where you quote Paul, Paul is explaining that the Jews sinned just like everyone else.

Paul is explaining that there is no righteous person that never sins.

Paul is quoting from the Old Testament.

There are people who gladly do right, who remember Gods ways, but they could not stop sinning.

Isaiah 64:5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?

Can you see that?

There are still those who gladly do right, but cannot stop sinning against God. That is when God gives us the Holy Spirit, so that we can stop sinning.

 

[Moriah]

I see no evidence of that.

You called me a stone. Now you see no evidence of it. Did you forget already? Look back at your post to me.

 

[Moriah]

Say again???

The kingdom of heaven was offered to the Jews in Jesus time. They rejected it. It will not come again until Jesus comes again and sets up his rule in the Millennial Kingdom.
Note this well. The phrase "the kingdom is used in the NT 33 times. 32 of those times it is used in the Gospel of Matthew. The only other occurrence is in Revelation 12 where it speaks of the MK. You do not understand the kingdom of heaven. Again you try to teach doctrine from a parable and have gone astray.

That is your problem. My salvation is kept by Christ. It is in his hand. It is eternally secured. I am one of his sheep. I shall never perish. He has given me eternal life. All my sins: past, present and future are under the blood. There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. I don't live in the fear of losing my salvation as you do.

If you were honest with yourself you would admit that you sin every day. You sin through the very things that you post.
For example, you accuse Biblicist and others of blasphemy, falsity, and other harsh things. Would it not be better to say: "I have a different view." Or, "You may be right, but this is what I believe." You sin, every time you accuse them of something akin of blasphemy and false teaching when there is a possibility that they might be right and you might be wrong. Day after day you do this. It is sin. It is pride. It is arrogance. And then to say you don't struggle with sin is to commit the sin mentioned in 1John 1:8,10 which is far worse--denying Christ.

What does the Bible mean when it says a person denies Christ and the truth is not in him? I am only the messenger of the Word of God; I did not write it. There are other ways to disagree with a person rather than accuse them of blasphemy. That is what the Jews did to Jesus, and Jesus said they would never be forgiven. I don't believe that is the case here, but it is a good warning.

You have just done the same thing again. You have just accused me of doing the work of the devil. Now if you are wrong it is you doing the work of the devil for you have made an accusation without any room for any possibility that you might be wrong. That kind of accusation is sin.

But as you just demonstrated you just accused the brethren. You just accused me of doing the work of the devil.
The native Indian used to say: "You speak with forked tongue."

I stand by what I said.

I speak what the Bible says, and you go against me.

I said I work out my salvation, and you say that is where I go wrong. You admit you do not do that, you do not do what Jesus says.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

You go against the Word of God and repeat man’s wisdom, man’s wisdom that is rubbish compared to God’s wisdom.

 

[Moriah]

Biblicist,
Humble yourself man. Stop attacking me. You did not even know about Old Covenant and New Covenant.

 

[DHK]

I stand by what I said.

I speak what the Bible says, and you go against me.

I can quote the Bible too.
"There is no God" Psalm 14:1
--Quoting the Bible doesn't mean you understand it properly, neither does it mean you are telling the truth about it.

I said I work out my salvation, and you say that is where I go wrong. You admit you do not do that, you do not do what Jesus says.

I did not admit that I do not work out my salvation.
--another lie; another false accusation, and another sin.
I don't accept your definition of what that verse means. You have a wrong understanding of the verse. I didn't want to take the time to explain it right there and then, as it has been done before on this board already for you.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Fine; you can quote it. But without understanding. Without understanding the verse is meaningless to you. You make the verse contradict the rest of the Bible.

You go against the Word of God and repeat man’s wisdom, man’s wisdom that is rubbish compared to God’s wisdom.

It is not I that goes against the Bible.
You sin again when you accuse me of using man's wisdom. Why do you love to revel in sin, Moriah? You only prove to all that are here that you love your sin, and continue to sin every day, when you maintain that you don't.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have shown you that you were using Old Testament scriptures about what was going to happen, not about what was happening. I have explained to you Old Testament/Old Covenant and New Testament/New Covenant.

Deuteronomy 29:4 describes the CURRENT STATE not some future state or some future happening.

The same is true with all the scriptures about circumcision of the heart. They described their CURRENT STATE. The only text that spoke of something yet future was Ezekiel 36:26-27 and that was in regard to the NATION of Israel in the future without denying individual application currently:

Where you quote Paul, Paul is explaining that the Jews sinned just like everyone else.

False!

Romans 3:9 "Jews" and "gentiles" ALL UNDER SIN

Romans 3:10-18 - THERE IS NONE NO, NOT ONE among Jews and gentiles

Romans 3:19-20 - ALL THE WORLD, NO FLESH, EVERY MOUTH

Romans 3:22-23 - THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, ALL have sinned

You talk about being blind as a bat, that is precisely the right description for anyone reading this and restricting it to Jews only under the law.

Paul is explaining that there is no righteous person that never sins.

False - He is speaking of ALL HUMANITY WITH THE NATURE THEY ARE BORN INTO THIS WORLD WITH.

Paul is quoting from the Old Testament.

Quoting from a text that speaks about the UNIVERSAL CONDITION OF MANKIND not merely Jews (chidlren OF MEN).

There are people who gladly do right, who remember Gods ways, but they could not stop sinning.

Absolute lie! There are NONE, NO, NOT ONE that does good as they come from the womb of man - NONE - "what is born of flesh IS FLESH" and none "in the flesh" can please God - Rom. 8:8

Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


.

Isaiah 64:5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?

Jerked out of context:

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Can you see that?

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist,
Humble yourself man. Stop attacking me. You did not even know about Old Covenant and New Covenant.

Your gospel saves no one and there is no humility in your arrogant rebellion against God and His Word.

 

[Moriah]

I said, "I work out my salvation."


DHK said, "That is your problem.

I told DHK I work out my salvation, that is what the Bible says to do. DHK said "That is your problem."

You cannot twist this DHK and expect those who can see to be fooled.

 

[Moriah]

I can quote the Bible too.
"There is no God" Psalm 14:1

Your reasoning is illogical.

 

[DHK]

I told DHK I work out my salvation, that is what the Bible says to do. DHK said "That is your problem."

You cannot twist this DHK and expect those who can see to be fooled.

Yes, you posted a verse of Scripture. It is like many of the Catholics who post the verse in Peter that baptism saves, when we know it doesn't. They ignore the context. And that is what you are doing. You ignore context. You post a verse, that when it sits by itself, contradicts the rest of the Bible. You haven't even tried to explain the verse in the context in which it is set.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your reasoning is illogical.

Strange! Everyone has illogical reasoning but you? However, you cannot answer his questions or deal with the scriptures he places before you or the scriptures I place before you! hmmmmmm!

 

[Moriah]

Strange! Everyone has illogical reasoning but you? However, you cannot answer his questions or deal with the scriptures he places before you or the scriptures I place before you! hmmmmmm!

You are a brute talking man with a foul mouth.

DHK lets you get away with it, while he himself does the same things as you.
Then when I defend myself, you both twist it as if you two are the victims.